How Madden can be made a simulator viably

[CM Hooe]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

In this sense, I've always thought of Madden as the NFL gaming equivalent of Call of Duty - it's meant to sell, and that's that.

Video games primarily exist to make money. Otherwise, no one would be making them. This shouldn't surprise anyone.

---

To the rest of the topic, I welcome any elements that EA introduces into the game which add to the realism of the football experience. That said, I doubt EA ventures too far into "simulator" territory, lest they alienate gamers who simply want to fire up a game of football. This is the reason the Strategy Pad exists; the controls were becoming way too overwhelming for new players, and the Strategy Pad exists to reduce the game's learning curve. The Kinect voice commands serve a similar function.

In addition, arguably their game already _is_ a simulator.

[PioneerRaptor]

Quote: Originally Posted by MissionMaximus

Loved it, wish EA would release a PC HeadCoach with the current Engine. They have Origin now why not?

I loved NFL Head Coach, I never expected them to make a second one, so maybe they will make another one eventually.

I'm not sure what the sales figures were, but I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't good enough to warrant another game though. Also, Looman is now working on Madden, so it wouldn't quite be the same if he wasn't working on it.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by CM Hooe

Video games primarily exist to make money. Otherwise, no one would be making them. This shouldn't surprise anyone. --- To the rest of the topic, I welcome any elements that EA introduces into the game which add to the realism of the football experience. That said, I doubt EA ventures too far into "simulator" territory, lest they alienate gamers who simply want to fire up a game of football. This is the reason the Strategy Pad exists; the controls were becoming way too overwhelming for new players, and the Strategy Pad exists to reduce the game's learning curve. The Kinect voice commands serve a similar function. In addition, arguably their game already _is_ a simulator.

Of course games need to make money but not all developers go the mainstream mass appeal route - plenty of games are niche and some of these are not low budget either. I'm not sure exactly what the driving force is - probably passion for the product over raw $$$. I'm sure BI, the developers of ARMA, could have made plenty of decisions differently aimed at maximizing revenue over anything else - but they didn't.

I'm not advocating replacing Madden - leave it as is. I'm suggesting they assemble a new team and try to create a true simulator, one whose ultimate goal is to be so good it can be used as a tool by professionals. Not only is it definitely possible to achieve, but it is arguably only a matter of time before all sports start to adopt virtual simulation into preparations and strategy development, and the NFL would surely be at the forefront of this due to its stature and reliance on strategy. EA should get in now before some other company comes along and wows the NFL and its franchises with such a tool, and from there said company could easily scale it back for mass consumption.

[MissionMaximus]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

Of course games need to make money but not all developers go the mainstream mass appeal route - plenty of games are niche and some of these are not low budget either. I'm not sure exactly what the driving force is - probably passion for the product over raw $$$. I'm sure BI, the developers of ARMA, could have made plenty of decisions differently aimed at maximizing revenue over anything else - but they didn't. I'm not advocating replacing Madden - leave it as is. I'm suggesting they assemble a new team and try to create a true simulator, one whose ultimate goal is to be so good it can be used as a tool by professionals. Not only is it definitely possible to achieve, but it is arguably only a matter of time before all sports start to adopt virtual simulation into preparations and strategy development, and the NFL would surely be at the forefront of this due to its stature and reliance on strategy. EA should get in now before some other company comes along and wows the NFL and its franchises with such a tool, and from there said company could easily scale it back for mass consumption.

That's why I love PC Gaming...Indie Game makers and Mods they make what they want...not the front office suits.

[PioneerRaptor]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

Of course games need to make money but not all developers go the mainstream mass appeal route - plenty of games are niche and some of these are not low budget either. I'm not sure exactly what the driving force is - probably passion for the product over raw $$$. I'm sure BI, the developers of ARMA, could have made plenty of decisions differently aimed at maximizing revenue over anything else - but they didn't. I'm not advocating replacing Madden - leave it as is. I'm suggesting they assemble a new team and try to create a true simulator, one whose ultimate goal is to be so good it can be used as a tool by professionals. Not only is it definitely possible to achieve, but it is arguably only a matter of time before all sports start to adopt virtual simulation into preparations and strategy development, and the NFL would surely be at the forefront of this due to its stature and reliance on strategy. EA should get in now before some other company comes along and wows the NFL and its franchises with such a tool, and from there said company could easily scale it back for mass consumption.

I'm not sure why you think something like that is going to happen. It hasn't happened for any of the major sports franchises yet, except FIFA Manager. EA attempted a full simulation with Head Coach, and while I loved the game, it didn't garner a lot interest. 2K hasn't tried that with basketball and they're attempt to do it with baseball was a failure. Yes, their is OOTP, but even then that doesn't sale enough to make the larger companies want to put forth the resources.

As you have said, simulation games are very niche in their appeal and therefore you won't be seeing the larger companies going for them. I couldn't name one simulator that has been successful from a well-known large developer. You can name ARMA, but Bohemia isn't close to being on the same level (in terms of cash flow) as EA, Activision, Take-Two, Rockstar, etc.

[Nza]

Quote: Originally Posted by PioneerRaptor

I'm not sure why you think something like that is going to happen. It hasn't happened for any of the major sports franchises yet, except FIFA Manager. EA attempted a full simulation with Head Coach, and while I loved the game, it didn't garner a lot interest. 2K hasn't tried that with basketball and they're attempt to do it with baseball was a failure. Yes, their is OOTP, but even then that doesn't sale enough to make the larger companies want to put forth the resources. As you have said, simulation games are very niche in their appeal and therefore you won't be seeing the larger companies going for them. I couldn't name one simulator that has been successful from a well-known large developer. You can name ARMA, but Bohemia isn't close to being on the same level (in terms of cash flow) as EA, Activision, Take-Two, Rockstar, etc.

I don't believe HC was a proper sim - it was Madden locked to coach mode with a few extra specific features. My definition of sim here is the strictest possible - HC was never going to offer professional football people anything significant. It was squarely aimed at enthusiasts, not professionals.

Videogame sims already have a strong foothold in the racing world. There are cycling sims out there which are pretty hardcore. Air combat and flight have been integral for years. Some parts of reality are harder than others - a true personnel combat sim is going to require interfaces that aren't feasible or even possible yet. But I think there are elements to pro football that definitely can be covered by current tech (mostly the strategy elements), it just requires a bit of effort.

Much of this is forecasting into the future - but it won't be too long before it's the present. Maybe a company like EA just isn't interested because it breaks a ROI rule or something they abide by, because it will require significant investment. Either way it will eventually happen with or without them - no doubt.

[edjames01]

Quote: Originally Posted by Nza

I don't believe HC was a proper sim - it was Madden locked to coach mode with a few extra specific features. My definition of sim here is the strictest possible - HC was never going to offer professional football people anything significant. It was squarely aimed at enthusiasts, not professionals. Videogame sims already have a strong foothold in the racing world. There are cycling sims out there which are pretty hardcore. Air combat and flight have been integral for years. Some parts of reality are harder than others - a true personnel combat sim is going to require interfaces that aren't feasible or even possible yet. But I think there are elements to pro football that definitely can be covered by current tech (mostly the strategy elements), it just requires a bit of effort. Much of this is forecasting into the future - but it won't be too long before it's the present. Maybe a company like EA just isn't interested because it breaks a ROI rule or something they abide by, because it will require significant investment. Either way it will eventually happen with or without them - no doubt.

A few extra features????

There is no way that they are going to take it further than Head Coach though. It would just take forever to play and most people would not have the time or knowledge to do it.

[PioneerRaptor]

I just can't agree. I don't see simulator games becoming hugely popular in the near future. They have been around for a long time and they still cater to niche groups of people.

That doesn't make them bad games, but because of their complexity, it pushes away a lot of games. A true football simulation, both on and off the field would be very complex and not many people would be willing to put forth the time play the game.

As you stated, Head Coach isn't a full sim, I know that, but it's the closest we've been to a full sim football game and that didn't even go over well enough. If you make it even more complex than that, it's not going to find enough people to play to support it.