Home

AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

This is a discussion on AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport within the Madden NFL Last Gen forums.

Go Back   Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football > Madden NFL Last Gen
FIFA 21 Review
Tennis World Tour 2 Review
Doug Flutie's Maximum Football 2020 Review
Poll: Which next-gen console are you going to purchase? (Click to vote)
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 09-12-2012, 06:56 PM   #25
Banned
 
Big FN Deal's Arena
 
OVR: 33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by RGiles36
That's true, but it's not an exaggeration to suggest that AI matters much more for the offline gamer than it does for online. And it matters at various levels from individual adjustments and strategy to playcalling; all of which aren't paramount to the user vs user experience b/c the user himself is controlling all of those aspects of the game.

So speaking for myself, I don't believe that AI bears the exact same importance for both experiences. It matters for both, but it carries more weight on one side versus the other. It's no coincidence that some Madden gamers are carrying on with their online CCMs w/ no hesitation. Those of us who play against the AI are left on our knees, hoping that the offline experience gets some necessary love in both the near and distant futures.
Glad to see you post in this thread because it was a post of yours that inspired me to create this thread. Thanks for the clarification because there definitely needs to be a distinction made between play calling AI and game play/on-field AI. I glad you are in agreement about the game play AI being the same for CPU v User and User v User but is that mindset shared by the game play devs/programmers. I have listened to a radio interview with Ian and he clearly states that the adaptive AI, the best kind of AI for game play, imo, was intentionally different/watered down in User v User games. If that is still the case, I think that is an issue and needs to change.
Big FN Deal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Old 09-12-2012, 06:59 PM   #26
Pro
 
EmmdotFrisk's Arena
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 656
Blog Entries: 1
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
Glad to see you post in this thread because it was a post of yours that inspired me to create this thread. Thanks for the clarification because there definitely needs to be a distinction made between play calling AI and game play/on-field AI. I glad you are in agreement about the game play AI being the same for CPU v User and User v User but is that mindset shared by the game play devs/programmers. I have listened to a radio interview with Ian and he clearly states that the adaptive AI, the best kind of AI for game play, imo, was intentionally different/watered down in User v User games. If that is still the case, I think that is an issue and needs to change.
The thing that is interesting about adaptive AI is that a lot of it is based on rules. Me and you could sit and create a million rules but once we put them in the game how would it work? Some rules would conflict, some wouldn't trigger. It would be fun, but boy would it be frustrating to create that architecture.
EmmdotFrisk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:13 PM   #27
Banned
 
Big FN Deal's Arena
 
OVR: 33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nunyerbiz
And I think I can agree with you that certain extreme circumstances could induce "confusion" ... The DE charging 25 yards away from the LOS before the snap for example. My concern is where do you draw the line? How many of these types of situations can you reasonably account for and what are the consequences of going overboard with it?
I appreciate you sir because you allow me to flesh out my suggestions. I always say if an idea can not be articulated in a way that makes sense, then it's likely not a good idea, lol.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "confusion" so I will instead say, I want to see unexpected freelancing as described earlier, have some applicable effect. To give a much more clear example, in a basketball video game, if playing man to man defense, I take the Center out to half court to pressure a point guard bringing the ball up, without bothering to utilize an actual in-game double team, my point guard that is assigned to check him, will switch off to check someone else. In simple terms, that's what I am talking about in Madden, this unexpected freelancing having a reasonable effect on applicable teammates.

As far as how far to take it, I would simply say allow each player a certain radius within their assignment, according to the playcall/playart. So if like in my early example, a DE assigned to pass rush the edge, goes out wider or backs up slightly to get out of their 3 point stance, no problem, However, if they proceed to come off the LOS at LB depth, out deep with the safeties, running all over the field ridiculously, etc, that should cause assignment switching as a consequence, as they are passing through these areas. So if that rouge DE is at LB depth when the ball is snapped, it causes a LB or whomever to maybe stand there in limbo or switch to another assignment. Just some effect to add a realism based consequence for a User choosing to abandon football principles.

To repeat, maybe you feel like this is not needed and M13 currently has enough risk/reward for such a play but as an avid online player, I completely disagree.
Big FN Deal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:21 PM   #28
Banned
 
Big FN Deal's Arena
 
OVR: 33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmmdotFrisk
I would agree that AI is an important piece of gaming but I don't know of too many games that have incredible AI. It is very challenging to create a game where a digital entity thinks and reacts like a human. There are so many variables that you can attempt to do it with code, but will always be inferior to its real life counterpart.

Glad to see you chime in, I appreciate it. In response to your post, I am basing this premise on what another EA video game, FIFA, is touting, Pro Player Intelligence. http://fifasoccerblog.com/blog/fifa-...-intelligence/

I have read how the games at EA can share tech and this is one I would like to see the applicable aspects adapted for NFL football in Madden.
Big FN Deal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:41 PM   #29
Banned
 
Big FN Deal's Arena
 
OVR: 33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmmdotFrisk
The thing that is interesting about adaptive AI is that a lot of it is based on rules. Me and you could sit and create a million rules but once we put them in the game how would it work? Some rules would conflict, some wouldn't trigger. It would be fun, but boy would it be frustrating to create that architecture.
I am not a programmer so of course this all seems far more easy to me on paper than it likely is to implement. However, most of my "ideas" come from things I have seen in other video games, mainly other sports video games. I don't want to mention that other game much but the VIP system was a solid premise. I think NBA Live might have had something similar also the smart weapon from M08, I think, all are good premises for adaptive AI.

To me, it's just about the AI making a calculation on what a User will do, based on what they have done before. It all sounds like numbers and equations to me, perfect for a computer program to calculate and process. I am concerned that the devs see adaptive AI as some kind of assist or crutch but what it does is allow misdirection and trickery to actually be represented in-game, as well as promote play calling diversity.

I am sure adaptive AI could be infinitely discussed and expanded on, to no end. However, even the basics of adaptive AI are not represented well in M13, imo. For example, a played someone, that came out in the same play multiple times, where the TE ran a shake route and the RB ran a delay route out the backfield. Even if he no huddled/hurried up into that same play six times, the defender covering the TE was "shook" by the shake route and the other defender fooled by the RB delay, every time, lol.

So while I agree that adaptive AI has incredible depth, I advocating for Madden to implement the basics.
Big FN Deal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:42 PM   #30
Pro
 
EmmdotFrisk's Arena
 
OVR: 6
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Florida
Posts: 656
Blog Entries: 1
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big FN Deal
I appreciate you sir because you allow me to flesh out my suggestions. I always say if an idea can not be articulated in a way that makes sense, then it's likely not a good idea, lol.

Maybe I shouldn't have used the word "confusion" so I will instead say, I want to see unexpected freelancing as described earlier, have some applicable effect. To give a much more clear example, in a basketball video game, if playing man to man defense, I take the Center out to half court to pressure a point guard bringing the ball up, without bothering to utilize an actual in-game double team, my point guard that is assigned to check him, will switch off to check someone else. In simple terms, that's what I am talking about in Madden, this unexpected freelancing having a reasonable effect on applicable teammates.

As far as how far to take it, I would simply say allow each player a certain radius within their assignment, according to the playcall/playart. So if like in my early example, a DE assigned to pass rush the edge, goes out wider or backs up slightly to get out of their 3 point stance, no problem, However, if they proceed to come off the LOS at LB depth, out deep with the safeties, running all over the field ridiculously, etc, that should cause assignment switching as a consequence, as they are passing through these areas. So if that rouge DE is at LB depth when the ball is snapped, it causes a LB or whomever to maybe stand there in limbo or switch to another assignment. Just some effect to add a realism based consequence for a User choosing to abandon football principles.

To repeat, maybe you feel like this is not needed and M13 currently has enough risk/reward for such a play but as an avid online player, I completely disagree.
I thought about the idea of a radius too, which in theory would work. The tough thing would be how to govern player movement. That is where it gets tricky. It is doable, but there would be so many responsibilities that would need to be scripted in game, that we who know football take advantage of in real life.

Think of it this way. 11 professional football player gets his brain wiped and all he knows is basic instincts. Now explain to all of them together, and separately how to play the game of football.
EmmdotFrisk is offline  
Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-2012, 07:57 PM   #31
Banned
 
Big FN Deal's Arena
 
OVR: 33
Join Date: Aug 2011
Re: AI Must Be A Focal Point For A Team Sport

Quote:
Originally Posted by EmmdotFrisk
I thought about the idea of a radius too, which in theory would work. The tough thing would be how to govern player movement. That is where it gets tricky. It is doable, but there would be so many responsibilities that would need to be scripted in game, that we who know football take advantage of in real life.

Think of it this way. 11 professional football player gets his brain wiped and all he knows is basic instincts. Now explain to all of them together, and separately how to play the game of football.
Like in the basketball example I used, the consequence or effect of freelancing, is that the AI teammates attempt to compensate which inherently causes potential disarray. That would then promote Users to either pick a play where they can User control an assigned "freelancer", adhere to the parameters of their own playcall or suffer the consequences/effects.

The premise already exists in M13 because if you pick a Cover 2 Man under against a 2WR 2TE 1RB set, I think, with the RB and TE running crossing routes, the defender assigned to check each in the playart, will switch off. So if you are using controlling one of these defenders and try to cover strictly based on the playart, one of them winds up wide open. Same principle except these "switches" are dictated by excessive movement outside the parameters of the playcall opposed to by the playcall itself.
Big FN Deal is offline  
Reply With Quote
Advertisements - Register to remove
Reply


« Previous Thread | Next Thread »

« Operation Sports Forums > Football > Madden NFL Football > Madden NFL Last Gen »


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:52 PM.

Top -