The Devolving of EA football AI and why we need some input from EA to help.

[SloeyEZ]

As most of you know, I'm back in the Maddensphere after playing Head Coach since 06. Most of you also know that the main reason I stopped playing Madden is because I don't like to control players. What I just realized though, and what hopefully EA can help us all understand...is the game engine (ai) fundamentally different (for on the field action only) for a user-controlled game such as Madden rather than a CPU controlled game such as Head Coach?

That needs to be answered first, but regardless of the answer, why does the football AI in Madden seem to be devolving?

So where is the disconnect?

1) Is EA making the deliberate choice to change and leave AI each year? I know a lot of you who have been playing Madden for the last xx years may have already figured this out, but remember I'm new to Madden (well since HC06)

2) If they are making a deliberate choice to change the football AI each year, why? Are changes they are making off the field affecting football AI? (coding-wise)

3) If it is not a deliberate choice and the game engine has pretty much been the same in both HC and Madden for the last x years, then why is the AI apparently getting worse in Madden, than what it was in HC09? (Exemplified by LB vs Draw thread with an outstanding OP vs HC animation for a draw play)

4) If the engines are fundamentally different in cpu vs user control then what exactly is happening on the field when a) users don't touch the stick so cpu takes over the player b) the other players who are always under cpu control?

5) Why is scripting such a naughty word? It implies lack of control first of all. I don't mean to answer my own question, so is there a difference in scripting actions (results & animation) between cpu actions and user actions?

6) I realize a lot of our frustration stems from ignorance. That being said though, why are we able to point out (regardless of whether we were being fooled or if the logic was actually smarter and reacting to the ball instead of a predetermined script) differences (in the wrong direction) in what we see from one year and one game to the next?

That's all I got for now, again, let's try to keep this thread concise and not repeat what's already been stated, even if you can state it better!! That way Emm and EA will have the time and patience to read this thread.

Emm, if you're able to answer these or have someone answer them, I think it would go a long (that's not bold enough for how much I want to emphasize) way to helping all of us general consumers set our expectations and patience at a reasonable level, so of course, EA can continue to exceed our expectations each and every year

What this thread is for:

A) Increasing our knowledge of what EA does, so we can modify our expectations based on what is technologically plausible vs the plausible but not reasonable based on margin of benefit/enjoyment/profit to work and time coding.

B) Responding to statements that are factual from members of EA and their representatives with either suggestions, or further questions.

What this thread is not for:

A) Flaming EA because there is a problem with AI (we all know and understand this).

B) Posting statements as fact when you truly have no idea what is happening on the desktops (and in the engine of the game) of the people who are actually making this game. (<--I hope everyone understands that, I'm trying to be nice and not name names, but don't post about what you see on the surface and presume to know what is happening in the engine. That would be like judging a car and saying the car is too slow or too fast from the outside as it passes by you without having a clue who is driving, where they are going, or how and why they need to get there.)

[JTommy67]

Quote:

That needs to be answered first, but regardless of the answer, why does the football AI in Madden seem to be devolving?

I like your post, but I don't think they're going to answer a question that presumes their own guilt.

Let me point out why I think we're seeing what we're seeing. Forgive me, but it does require some speculation, but not without some forethought.

I would venture to guess that the perpetual AI problems stem from too many confounding variables within the gameplay. What happens in a given play is due to so many different calculations being performed that it becomes a mess in trying to sort out what is causing what.

With so many ratings at work at a given time, it becomes difficult to isolate which ones may be influencing the outcome of a given interaction on the field. Some ratings seem to overlap, and I would speculate that some are even redundant. Take the awareness rating, for example. In the past, it was presumed this rating referred to a player's reaction time. On defense, this meant a high awareness player would break on the ball sooner. But now we also have play recognition. Are these two ratings doing the same thing at the same time? I don't know...

And since EA is somewhat guarded about what exactly they do, we can't say for sure.

I have often thought that a RB's awareness affects how well his line blocks for him. This may just be my own imagination, but I don't think it's a stretch to assume that certain ratings function this way. If so, what is really needed is for the game to be stripped completely down so that these ratings and interactions can be observed while minimizing confounding variables. It's nice to think that may have been done, but given the nature of "AI tweaks" and "improvements" from year to year, it doesn't seem so to me.

Take line play. It's well known that once the tackle and defensive end engage, calculations are performed and the conclusion is a winner and a loser (a dynamic that is rightfully heavily criticized). If the tackle loses, the DE gets around him and runs unabated towards the QB. This produces a level of pressure from the DE position that can be expected based on the law of averages in a given game. But are there tests they run to determine, for example, how many times this will happen in a 15 min quarter game (say 60 snaps) between players with controlled ratings, where all other factors are controlled for, such as fatigue, hot-and-cold streaks, etc...?

My guess is no. They look at how the game plays, and tweak in order to get reasonable results. EA devs often say that if you tweak something, it might break something else. To me this is evidence that the confounding variables are at play and there is no time/willingness to strip interactions down to the bare bones.

Which is what needs to happen. If "scripting" exists, if band-aid dynamics and routines have been inserted to remedy AI flaws from years past, what needs to be done to move forward now is to remove all of that and start again...it seems that in the year 2012 we should be to the point where EA can look at individual players reacting on the field with a minimum of ratings at play and work again from the ground up.

But a one-year development cycle will most likely never allow for that.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by JTommy67

I like your post, but I don't think they're going to answer a question that presumes their own guilt.

I disagree. First, guilt has far too a negative connotation for this situation. Second, If they don't answer, it isn't because they are avoiding the question, it is because they are too busy or it is too long or too erroneous of a question.

I won't be surprised if it is not answered, and I will equally be unsurprised if it is answered.