Free Speech vs Draft Class Threads

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

Anyway, overall, your arguments are valid and I guess I knew it was futile attempt, I'm just surprised more people were not upset about the threads. Maybe that says something about the state of the Madden game....everyone is just looking for the easy way out, buy the prima cheat book and win...because apparently nothing else matters...based on the responses so far.

Way to go, dude, insulting everyone not agreeing with you, that's classy. Bonus point for basically ignoring everything that has been written. You just came closer to violating the TOS than any of those draft guide threads ever did.

[RyanMoody21]

Quote: Originally Posted by californ14

Seems this issue falls on the shoulders of EA/Tiburon.....They need to create a dynamic and random draft system that cannot be duplicated....

I hope this doesn't get lost in the shuffle. I have never seen the reason behind not having dynamic classes. Why not have every year be a different random generation of players.

That's the only way to remove these shortcuts, make the scouting and mean something and perhaps an accomplishment would be earned not given.

Then again, that method would remove a chapter from guidebooks.

[roll2tide]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

So, I agree with most of you on most of your points. However, I strongly disagree with the logic of at least everyone has access to it. I, for one, would never use it because I don't cheat

This is the part your having trouble with, SloeyEZ. If a door is unlocked, then everyone has an equal chance to open it. Just because your the kind of person who would never open a door in no way diminishes your opportunity to do so. You do have access to the draft guides. that you choose not to use them has no bearing on your level of access.

Secondly....what, precisely, is cheating? And who decides? You? Why? You have some very narrow views sometimes and in this case it is preventing you from accepting some basic facts....

A)Cheating is a subjective term in this case.
B)You do not get to define cheating for anyone but yourself.
C)Just because you call it cheating doesn't mean that I do.
D)There can be no defined winner when debating a subjective subject.

It's not that i don't get your point....I do. I play in leagues myself. The problem is that your trying to take your opinion and equate it to a defined term(cheating) and project it on others. For you to say, "If I use a guide I feel like I'm cheating", is fine. For you to say, "If you use a guide then your a cheater", isn't.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by roll2tide

This is the part your having trouble with, SloeyEZ. If a door is unlocked, then everyone has an equal chance to open it. Just because your the kind of person who would never open a door in no way diminishes your opportunity to do so. You do have access to the draft guides. that you choose not to use them has no bearing on your level of access. Secondly....what, precisely, is cheating? And who decides? You? Why? You have some very narrow views sometimes and in this case it is preventing you from accepting some basic facts.... A)Cheating is a subjective term in this case. B)You do not get to define cheating for anyone but yourself. C)Just because you call it cheating doesn't mean that I do. D)There can be no defined winner when debating a subjective subject. It's not that i don't get your point....I do. I play in leagues myself. The problem is that your trying to take your opinion and equate it to a defined term(cheating) and project it on others. For you to say, "If I use a guide I feel like I'm cheating", is fine. For you to say, "If you use a guide then your a cheater", isn't.

Good point Tide, so you made me look up the definition from Dictionary.com:
cheat

   [cheet] Show IPA
verb (used with object) 1. to defraud; swindle: He cheated her out of her inheritance.

2. to deceive; influence by fraud: He cheated us into believing him a hero.

3. to elude; deprive of something expected: He cheated the law by suicide.




verb (used without object) 4. to practice fraud or deceit: She cheats without regrets.

5. to violate rules or regulations: He cheats at cards.

6. to take an examination or test in a dishonest way, as by improper access to answers.

7. Informal . to be sexually unfaithful (often followed by on ): Her husband knew she had been cheating all along. He cheated on his wife.





8. a person who acts dishonestly, deceives, or defrauds: He is a cheat and a liar.

9. a fraud; swindle; deception: The game was a cheat.

10. Law . the fraudulent obtaining of another's property by a pretense or trick.

11. an impostor: The man who passed as an earl was a cheat.

I believe definition 6 is most applicable, the draft being a "test" and the player attributes being the "answers". If you can't see that in your reasoning, then we can't really debate any further and just agree to disagree.

I also believe def#3 is applicable in that people that play against people using the draft thread answers are deprived of the strategy of using your limited scouting points to draft the correct players.

I'll admit, I've always had a bias against people that use Prima "walk-through" guides to play a game where they are given step-by-step directions on winning a game. I think that mind-set has a great deal to do with the state of society today which is about wanting everything handed to them for free rather than working and enjoying the satisfaction of earning success. But that we won't speak further of since that borders on politics.

Like I said originally though, people can play the game however they want when they are playing their own game. But as soon as you are playing online, with others, you have (i believe) a responsibility to treat others with respect and trust. If everyone that uses the draft thread identifies them as such, then no problem, you can't join my league but have fun playing in a league with others that do, or do not care if you do. More power to you, no problem. I don't see anyone volunteering this information when joining a league however which (to me) is deceitful.

Having said that, I will change my original position from not having the threads, to asking people that use them to be up front about it if playing in an online league. There, problem solved and everyone can continue to play how they like to play and there is no censorship which is the way I prefer it!!

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheDelta

Way to go, dude, insulting everyone not agreeing with you, that's classy. Bonus point for basically ignoring everything that has been written. You just came closer to violating the TOS than any of those draft guide threads ever did.

I have not ignored anything written, I take these forums rather seriously (if not too seriously) and can be persuaded from my "opinion" when presented with credible arguments (as Tide has done to change my position). I have always been very careful not to be insulting on this forum and I never have. Not sure how you construed any of my posts to be "insulting everyone not agreeing with you" but I definitely did not intend to insult. If saying that reading a prima guide and cheating yourself of the satisfaction of "working" through a game is insulting to you, or anyone else, then that is an issue they have to deal with and why they feel insulted as my speech or words was not in any way insulting.

Sorry you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting in any way.

[Dempseylicious23]

Quote: Originally Posted by SloeyEZ

I have not ignored anything written, I take these forums rather seriously (if not too seriously) and can be persuaded from my "opinion" when presented with credible arguments (as Tide has done to change my position). I have always been very careful not to be insulting on this forum and I never have. Not sure how you construed any of my posts to be "insulting everyone not agreeing with you" but I definitely did not intend to insult. If saying that reading a prima guide and cheating yourself of the satisfaction of "working" through a game is insulting to you, or anyone else, then that is an issue they have to deal with and why they feel insulted as my speech or words was not in any way insulting. Sorry you felt insulted. I wasn't insulting in any way.

When I work to make a living at a career, I do it for a couple of reasons.

#1) Because I enjoy what I do for a living.
#2) Because I want to make enough money to provide for myself a certain lifestyle.
#3) Because I make extra money to use on 'leisure activities"

I think a lot of people would define things like Xbox and Madden as "leisure activites". Working is stressful, many people don't want to be stressed while trying to enjoy their downtime. You may see satisfaction in "working through a game", but many others see maximum satisfaction in winning the game because it's not really fun to lose. If there is something present that can reduce their need to stress and work through the game and at the same time increase their odds of winning, they will do it.

Even in the NFL where players are paid to play (thus becoming their work), they cheat. Look at Ike Taylor. He's considered one of the most dynamic cornerbacks in the NFL, but he's also one of the most flagged players in the NFL. Linemen routinely hold on offense, many kick and punt returns get called back for illegal blocks or holding, Greg Schiano is simulating snap counts in Tampa. Some of those may be simple mistakes, but a lot of it is active cheating.


Because you conceptually define playing Madden as "work", while other people define it as "leisure", you will never see eye to eye on this issue. To you, using a guide is cheating. Would you consider using a sherpa and oxygen and a helicopter to get to base camp to climb Mount Everest cheating? Those are types of guides. To other people, using a guide is just a way to help for everyone and it wouldn't be very smart to ignore it because chances are, everyone else is using it.


Trying to look down your nose at other people and act holier-than-thou because you don't use a resource that others use in a leisure game is not going to get you very far with the majority of users here.

[SloeyEZ]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dempseylicious23

When I work to make a living at a career, I do it for a couple of reasons. #1) Because I enjoy what I do for a living. #2) Because I want to make enough money to provide for myself a certain lifestyle. #3) Because I make extra money to use on 'leisure activities" I think a lot of people would define things like Xbox and Madden as "leisure activites". Working is stressful, many people don't want to be stressed while trying to enjoy their downtime. You may see satisfaction in "working through a game", but many others see maximum satisfaction in winning the game because it's not really fun to lose. If there is something present that can reduce their need to stress and work through the game and at the same time increase their odds of winning, they will do it. Even in the NFL where players are paid to play (thus becoming their work), they cheat. Look at Ike Taylor. He's considered one of the most dynamic cornerbacks in the NFL, but he's also one of the most flagged players in the NFL. Linemen routinely hold on offense, many kick and punt returns get called back for illegal blocks or holding, Greg Schiano is simulating snap counts in Tampa. Some of those may be simple mistakes, but a lot of it is active cheating. Because you conceptually define playing Madden as "work", while other people define it as "leisure", you will never see eye to eye on this issue. To you, using a guide is cheating. Would you consider using a sherpa and oxygen and a helicopter to get to base camp to climb Mount Everest cheating? Those are types of guides. To other people, using a guide is just a way to help for everyone and it wouldn't be very smart to ignore it because chances are, everyone else is using it. Trying to look down your nose at other people and act holier-than-thou because you don't use a resource that others use in a leisure game is not going to get you very far with the majority of users here.

Agreed. I don't use extra resources, others can. Just two different styles, neither better than the other, just different. This really is about online leagues. Online leagues are about finding players that play the same way you play. Like I said earlier, people can play however they want to play. If you're going to join an online league, just let the commissioner know what kind of player you are.

All players are equal. I apologize for making it sound judgmental when I was expressing my opinion which I am also entitled to do on here. Again, I apologize if my opinion is interpreted as insulting to any specific person as that was not my intent.

So to close this argument before it becomes more than it should:

Everyone can play and use whatever resources they wish to enjoy the game. We will all agree and disagree with how others play and choose to use their leisure time. All I want to suggest is when you play in an online league, identify yourself as the player you are so you can ensure that your league is fun for you and everyone else because you are all in the same boat

Again, my apologies for ill feelings, my opinion is only that, my opinion and I stated it because the enjoyment of online leagues is being ruined after a full year of playing because only then does it surface that those that use draft threads ruin the draft for those in that league that do not. To ask to not have the threads was wrong. I should have approached it simply as if you use the thread, say you do before you join an online league.

[Big FN Deal]

LOL, @ the people acting as if SloeyEZ is talking crazy or something.

@SloeyEZ, I feel what you are saying man, in the context of the TOS on OS. It seems some people overlooked that point that you were making, concerning the rules of OS. According to some of the arguments against your point, then people should be able to post game play exploits too but those are not allowed on OS, so I can see your logic behind forbidding draft classes as well. I think some took your point out of context with all this talk about "people will find them anyway", as that is besides the point about whether they should be allowed on OS or not.

All that said, the free speech part is irrelevant to what is allowed to be posted or not on a privately owned message board.