How to Improve the Running Game

[Dempseylicious23]

Quote: Originally Posted by Ampking101

Also add into the fact that foot placement and weight shift and momentum aren't accounted for, you end up with having to do unrealistic things in runs that you see happen only in Madden (immediate direction change even with slow runners, zig zagging, 4+ broken tackles) to create a running game. Great break down.

Agreed, excellent break down. This is the biggest issue here.

The infinity engine seems to simply be a physics based animations engine. Since actual physics still aren't being accounted for and there aren't enough animations in game for dramatic vertical/horizontal line player shifts, a realistic zone blocking scheme is very difficult to accomplish. When was the last time you sacked a QB in this game by pushing an offensive line player into him? I don't know if I have ever seen that happen. More dramatic and dynamic vertical and horizontal movement needs to be added to line player animations.

If you take a look at more Houston clips, when the coaching staff calls a stretch run (outside, off-tackle), the entire offensive line essentially creates a wall that pushes the defense in the direction of the run. The purpose of the blocking scheme is to overpower the defense with a combination of vertical and horizontal movement. A successful stretch run often creates situations where you see one or two defensive players (usually a LB and a D line player) on their butts doing nothing at the end of the play. It's much more difficult to maintain your balance when being pushed laterally and vertically, zone blocking takes advantage of that.

As long as the offensive and defensive line interactions are still win/lose determinations where you play patty cake until you (from a defensive perspective) either spin/swim/bull away from the offensive line player in order to make a play, it will be tough to make a realistic zone blocking scheme. More animations need to be added where defensive players can simply push offensive line players back and forth and vice versa based on strength ratings, player height/weight, and other factors. That, or actual physics need to be programmed in to account for these things.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dempseylicious23

Agreed, excellent break down. This is the biggest issue here. The infinity engine seems to simply be a physics based animations engine. Since actual physics still aren't being accounted for and there aren't enough animations in game for dramatic vertical/horizontal line player shifts, a realistic zone blocking scheme is very difficult to accomplish. When was the last time you sacked a QB in this game by pushing an offensive line player into him? I don't know if I have ever seen that happen. More dramatic and dynamic vertical and horizontal movement needs to be added to line player animations. If you take a look at more Houston clips, when the coaching staff calls a stretch run (outside, off-tackle), the entire offensive line essentially creates a wall that pushes the defense in the direction of the run. The purpose of the blocking scheme is to overpower the defense with a combination of vertical and horizontal movement. A successful stretch run often creates situations where you see one or two defensive players (usually a LB and a D line player) on their butts doing nothing at the end of the play. It's much more difficult to maintain your balance when being pushed laterally and vertically, zone blocking takes advantage of that. As long as the offensive and defensive line interactions are still win/lose determinations where you play patty cake until you (from a defensive perspective) either spin/swim/bull away from the offensive line player in order to make a play, it will be tough to make a realistic zone blocking scheme. More animations need to be added where defensive players can simply push offensive line players back and forth and vice versa based on strength ratings, player height/weight, and other factors. That, or actual physics need to be programmed in to account for these things.

This is the first step, adding the lateral-moving animations.

I would, however, disagree with your notion of what stretch-style zone-blocking is trying to accomplish. The blocking scheme is not meant to "overpower" anything. It is just threatening the gap integrity of the defense by the possibility of a player getting reached.

Inside-zone schemes are more physical in nature and necessitate more aggressive techniques by the blockers.

[RyanMoody21]

Just to add a point or two, I don't have the game with me but in zone blocking does the line take a drop stop? I was almost positive they didn't.

As far as running in general I feel most if not all runs are zone in Madden, just by player interactions.

Angle blocking seems to very seldom done correctly, ironically when it is your usually gonna score.

On an inside run the guard should pull off a double team with the center, on the nose tackle and block the Will backer. The Tackle will turn the end out to seal a lane and the FB will go hit then MLB. The HB will then flow the block of the full back.

When I played, I always look at the direction the FB was going to take the backer on and pursued toward it. That way if the HB cut wrong, the backer had a chance to reach out and slow him and if he followed his block correctly I would be in positon to make a tackle.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by RyanMoody21

Just to add a point or two, I don't have the game with me but in zone blocking does the line take a drop stop? I was almost positive they didn't. As far as running in general I feel most if not all runs are zone in Madden, just by player interactions. Angle blocking seems to very seldom done correctly, ironically when it is your usually gonna score. On an inside run the guard should pull off a double team with the center, on the nose tackle and block the Will backer. The Tackle will turn the end out to seal a lane and the FB will go hit then MLB. The HB will then flow the block of the full back. When I played, I always look at the direction the FB was going to take the backer on and pursued toward it. That way if the HB cut wrong, the backer had a chance to reach out and slow him and if he followed his block correctly I would be in positon to make a tackle.

I think you should say most are base-blocked. There really doesn't ever seem to be zone techniques used.

[RyanMoody21]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

I think you should say most are base-blocked. There really doesn't ever seem to be zone techniques used.

Prolly just depends what we at perceiving we are visually looking at, to me a zone block is lineman with a gap assignment, find your gap and make contact with the player in it. When I watch a run play in Madden, that's what I am seeing. In part, it's the assignment less, mindless TE and FB that give me that feeling.

I rarely see the man on a man direct assignment based run play properly executed in Madden, void of one person just "floating" around. Seldom do I see solid second level blocking, consisntancy in FB assignment blocking and TE's sealing ends. Most notable in the FB there is generally a moment where they , I guess jitter while trying to decide who to block.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by RyanMoody21

Prolly just depends what we at perceiving we are visually looking at, to me a zone block is lineman with a gap assignment, find your gap and make contact with the player in it. When I watch a run play in Madden, that's what I am seeing. In part, it's the assignment less, mindless TE and FB that give me that feeling. I rarely see the man on a man direct assignment based run play properly executed in Madden, void of one person just "floating" around. Seldom do I see solid second level blocking, consisntancy in FB assignment blocking and TE's sealing ends. Most notable in the FB there is generally a moment where they , I guess jitter while trying to decide who to block.

Do you ever see lateral movement? If you don't, its not zone-blocked. When have you seen the cutups I originally posted represented in the game?

[RyanMoody21]

Quote: Originally Posted by shttymcgee

Do you ever see lateral movement? If you don't, its not zone-blocked. When have you seen the cutups I originally posted represented in the game?

I'm at work, can't see your attachments thanks to Websense.

Maybe our disconnect here we are using different terminology. Because we are both looking for certian signatures of running styles, not finding them and then declaring the other what's being used.

Just because the game doesn't have lateral movement animations doesn't mean it can't achive zone blocking, its just going to look strange. That's why the first thing I asked for clarification on was drop steps being in the game.


Go objectively run a few inside plays in Madden, and follow the interactions closely. Then compare the play art to what actually happens.

Personally, I dont see a whole of x and o and a lot more randomly finding player and engage. You also dont see consistent double team or second level blocking, both staples of angle blocking. Thats why I am saying I feel like all I see is Zone blocking because those are the traits I am looking for.

To get back to the original point, void of the drop steps your never going to see the angles of interactions and leverage battle to start with.

I totally agree with what your saying, even without seeing the caps. Clearly a lot of interactions are missing to really cement them to being purely one blocking scheme.

[shttymcgee]

Quote: Originally Posted by RyanMoody21

I'm at work, can't see your attachments thanks to Websense. Maybe our disconnect here we are using different terminology. Because we are both looking for certian signatures of running styles, not finding them and then declaring the other what's being used. Just because the game doesn't have lateral movement animations doesn't mean it can't achive zone blocking, its just going to look strange. That's why the first thing I asked for clarification on was drop steps being in the game. Go objectively run a few inside plays in Madden, and follow the interactions closely. Then compare the play art to what actually happens. Personally, I dont see a whole of x and o and a lot more randomly finding player and engage. You also dont see consistent double team or second level blocking, both staples of angle blocking. Thats why I am saying I feel like all I see is Zone blocking because those are the traits I am looking for. To get back to the original point, void of the drop steps your never going to see the angles of interactions and leverage battle to start with. I totally agree with what your saying, even without seeing the caps. Clearly a lot of interactions are missing to really cement them to being purely one blocking scheme.

I'm sorry, but stretch schemes are dependent upon lateral movement. There is no "stretch" if there is no lateral movement.

With most running plays in Madden, the OL just block the defenders ahead of them, this is not how zone blocking works, even though the logic has been greatly improved the past 3 years.

Lastly, the Alex Gibbs style stretch runs don't use drop steps on the playside of the run (they do on the cut-off blocks). Not that that is a big deal, but you don't truly need drop steps in a zone scheme; especially in "inside" or "tight" zone plays.