Can low rated QBs progress to become great

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Death

You entirely missed my point - or perhaps I wasn't clear enough. What I meant was that each QB played in a system that suited them perfectly - Montana/West Coast Offense - Warner/Air Coryell. Look at Warner his one year in NY... sure, he was brought in to prep Eli, but his play was nothing near what it was like in St. Louis or Arizona. That was my point - put a QB in a system that suits him and he will flourish. Obviously each was talented - but put Montana in a down-the-field offense like the at-the-time Chargers {Fouts} or Raiders and Montana would not have been as successful. Just saying that when you put a guy in the perfect system for his style, you'll see much better results. EDIT: And to further illustrate my point, consider that Montana was drafted in the 3rd round and Warner went un-drafted. I seriously think scouts only look for a specific type of QB and when they see a guy who doesn't fit that mold, they pass on him. Bill Walsh saw Montana and he saw gold!!! But if not for Walsh, Montana may not have ever even been given a chance, despite pulling off many miracle comeback wins for Notre Dame.

OK, but if a QB is rated 60, he shouldn't be putting up starters numbers for production in any system.

[Dr Death]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

OK, but if a QB is rated 60, he shouldn't be putting up starters numbers for production in any system.

I know that it is difficult now, but just imagine if there was a Madden game in 1979, the year Montana was drafted. What would his rating have been? Let's see... he was known for having a "weak arm," "skinny legs" and "injury prone."

Here's what one report said about him: "He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools, but could eventually start."

His rookie year he started one game - then his second year he started seven. After two season's he was 2-6 as a starter. What would his rating have been going into 1981?

Yet in '81 they went 13-3, won the Super Bowl and he not only threw the famous pass to Dwight Clark in "The Catch" game, he was MVP in Super Bowl XVI.

So... I'm just saying...

[penquin11]

In real life a player owes more than half of his success (or struggles) to the schemes he plays in.

Take a look at Darren McFadden, who went from being talked about as one of the best (if not the best) RB during the 2011-2012 season, to being a player that many are questioning due to his underwhelming performance in 2012. The big change wasn't in DMC, but rather it was due to a shift in the teams blocking scheme.

Similar changes can be seen in the Panthers vast improvement on defense this season, it all started with shifting Luke Kuechly to ILB instead of ROLB, as he was able to be more of a run stopper. Also Dwan Edwards had never posted a season with more than 4 sacks, however, upon being placed next to Hardy (who is best when utilizing the inside 3-technique) Dwan was able to play more to his strengths and got after the quarterback more often.

Still not convinced?

Lets take a look at Marshawn Lynch, who went from bust candidate in Buffalo to top 5 RB in Seattle, both teams have great o-lines, but the way that each team goes about running the ball made Lynch a much more valuable player in Seattle than he was in Buffalo. If you still don't believe me then lets imagine Darren Sproles attempting to be a lead back in the NFL- it wouldn't work, however he is perhaps the best RB in the NFL at doing what the saints want him to do (catch the ball).

Also lets take a look at Nnamdi Asomugha, who went from being the 2nd best Corner in the NFL to a joke on the Eagles- and its all because the Eagles didn't utilize him to his strengths.

Alex Smith went from being a huge bust to being one of the most reliable starters in the NFL- because of a change in schemes that played to his strengths.

at a certain point a lack of skill or physical ability can severely limit a player's ability to contribute. But to say that a "low rated" player couldn't produce at a high level if the situation was made perfect for him is silly.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by Dr Death

I know that it is difficult now, but just imagine if there was a Madden game in 1979, the year Montana was drafted. What would his rating have been? Let's see... he was known for having a "weak arm," "skinny legs" and "injury prone." Here's what one report said about him: "He can thread the needle, but usually goes with his primary receiver and forces the ball to him even when he's in a crowd. He's a gutty, gambling, cocky type. Doesn't have great tools, but could eventually start." His rookie year he started one game - then his second year he started seven. After two season's he was 2-6 as a starter. What would his rating have been going into 1981? Yet in '81 they went 13-3, won the Super Bowl and he not only threw the famous pass to Dwight Clark in "The Catch" game, he was MVP in Super Bowl XVI. So... I'm just saying...

Your talking about how the game works and how Montana would have been re-rated for each year. And really, Madden wouldn't have been close to right until after the SB win because Maddens ratings are reactive. In real live, a persons ability isn't reactive. In real live, Montana actually had the ability to become an elite QB. Not every QB in the NFL has that ability. But in Madden, the way things are set up, any QB can. That's what this thread is about and I don't disagree with those saying any QB can. What I was saying is your examples of Montana and Warner don't really fit this cause, in real life they had the ability to become elite. In real life, other QB's, no matter the scheme, don't have that ability. Since you were mixing real life with game, so was I. It just irks me that any QB in Madden can. Just not realistic.

I would like to see the game not be reactive and be more realistic.

[penquin11]

sigh... Not all players have the ability to become elite, however some(I don't know exactly how often) of the time it has NOTHING to do with their skill as much as it does their opportunity and their fit on the team.

Let me give you EVEN MORE EXAMPLES:

Vince Young: Could he have been great, yes, lets remember that he formerly was ROY on a team with a TERRIBLE WR core. Had he a WR core that could actually stretch the field, he could have done some damage.

Priest Holmes: Went from inneffective Raven to the most sucessful RB in Chiefs history.

Brett Farve: He was drafted by the Falcons....

Kurt Warner: Its already been stated enough.

Eli Manning: I wonder if the Chargers would have stuck with him as long as the Giants did during his growing pains...

Drew Brees:No-one could have possibly predicted that he would be as good as he has been for the Saints. He was supposed to be an upgrade sure, but no-one would have guessed that he would develop into one of the more prolific quarterbacks of the last decade.

Steve Young: Didn't the Bucs give up on him or something?

Jake Plummer: the dude was a scrub until he met up with Shannahan in Denver.

[bucky60]

Quote: Originally Posted by penquin11

sigh... Not all players have the ability to become elite, however some(I don't know exactly how often) of the time it has NOTHING to do with their skill as much as it does their opportunity and their fit on the team. Let me give you EVEN MORE EXAMPLES: Vince Young: Could he have been great, yes, lets remember that he formerly was ROY on a team with a TERRIBLE WR core. Had he a WR core that could actually stretch the field, he could have done some damage. Priest Holmes: Went from inneffective Raven to the most sucessful RB in Chiefs history. Brett Farve: He was drafted by the Falcons.... Kurt Warner: Its already been stated enough. Eli Manning: I wonder if the Chargers would have stuck with him as long as the Giants did during his growing pains... Drew Brees:No-one could have possibly predicted that he would be as good as he has been for the Saints. He was supposed to be an upgrade sure, but no-one would have guessed that he would develop into one of the more prolific quarterbacks of the last decade. Steve Young: Didn't the Bucs give up on him or something? Jake Plummer: the dude was a scrub until he met up with Shannahan in Denver.

To be an ELITE QB you have to have the ability.

Vince Young couldn't hold on to his starting job. How Elite could he be?

Brett Favre was a ROOKIE in Atlanta. If he doesn't have the ability and coaching to become Elite, no scheme is going to make him ELITE.

I don't think Kurt Warner even started until his SB season. All he needed was to show what he could do.

Graham Harrell is never going to the HOF no matter what scheme he's in. IN Madden you can make Graham Harrell ELITE. In Madden you can make any QB ELITE.

I can name a bunch of QB's that have gone into NFL camps that just did not have the ability to become ELITE no matter what scheme they played under.

[penquin11]

You can make Graham Harrel produce like he is elite, but his low pass strength will hold him back in Madden. That is the good thing about madden, it doesn't limit a good player to being only so good as his players.

[oneamongthefence]

Quote: Originally Posted by bucky60

To be an ELITE QB you have to have the ability. Vince Young couldn't hold on to his starting job. How Elite could he be? Brett Favre was a ROOKIE in Atlanta. If he doesn't have the ability and coaching to become Elite, no scheme is going to make him ELITE. I don't think Kurt Warner even started until his SB season. All he needed was to show what he could do. Graham Harrell is never going to the HOF no matter what scheme he's in. IN Madden you can make Graham Harrell ELITE. In Madden you can make any QB ELITE. I can name a bunch of QB's that have gone into NFL camps that just did not have the ability to become ELITE no matter what scheme they played under.

Yes YOU can make any player elite but the CPU adheres to actual ratings in regards to quarterbacks. If you can make Harrell elite its time to up your sliders.

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