No Huddle revamp for Madden NFL 25?

[KANE699]

I rather do not enjoy the fact that we have some arcade gamers as game changers, seems to defeat the purpose of creating a realistic game/gameplay.

We already have a arcade game, they already know how to make an exploitable football game, I understand if some people want this, let them have their cake, but don't force everyone else to play this way.

I don't see why this can't be like NBA 2k, why can't we just give the arcade/cheese/ballers/whatevertheywanttocallthemselves players the all pro feable football minded mode to them and have a simulation mode ala 2k. Everyone can play the game just the way they want it and won't be stuck when playing a random online into just playing one type of game.

[Big FN Deal]

Quote: Originally Posted by KANE699

I rather do not enjoy the fact that we have some arcade gamers as game changers, seems to defeat the purpose of creating a realistic game/gameplay. We already have a arcade game, they already know how to make an exploitable football game, I understand if some people want this, let them have their cake, but don't force everyone else to play this way. I don't see why this can't be like NBA 2k, why can't we just give the arcade/cheese/ballers/whatevertheywanttocallthemselves players the all pro feable football minded mode to them and have a simulation mode ala 2k. Everyone can play the game just the way they want it and won't be stuck when playing a random online into just playing one type of game.

Exactly and you have likely relayed this directly to Madden devs and creative heads, what did they say? Did they look at you like you were from another planet, I mean how did they rebut such a common sense proposal?

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Exactly and you have likely relayed this directly to Madden devs and creative heads, what did they say? Did they look at you like you were from another planet, I mean how did they rebut such a common sense proposal?

Good point and it pains me to agree with a Redskins fan so frequently, but gotta say I love your signature currently, priorities indeed!

[hanzsomehanz]

Quote: Originally Posted by StayPlation82

I think there should be more of an effort to find your pond and swim in it.

Niche Gaming huh? I should go stake out my own pocket of pleasure in the market of EA Madden Football?

That is the noble consumer solution you offer?

Where was this talk when folks could not handle the vision cone? It is this kind of talk that encourages the game devs to take the path of least resistance in adaptive AI.

Some*how revamping the no huddle should take a priority in matching NFL standards while other enhancements, like a) polishing the pocket system to better replicate an NFL trench, and b) polishing the adaptive AI so they react Proactively to NFL standards in processes, patterns and personnel matchups; some*how these enhancenents in core competencies should get pushed aside in an effort to fulfil the former proposal?

I see your point now.

"Find your pond and swim in it."

I take that as your polite way of telling someone off: I will be on my way to France now (on a slow boat).

Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

[KANE699]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

Exactly and you have likely relayed this directly to Madden devs and creative heads, what did they say? Did they look at you like you were from another planet, I mean how did they rebut such a common sense proposal?

Never got to bring up anything like this, I was gone around the time they brought in the gamechangers.

[ZAN]

Quote: Originally Posted by Big FN Deal

In full disclosure I am "looking a fight", albeit a civil one, so if you choose not to respond to me I completely understand. How many EAGCs are their that agree with this? I don't understand how anything or anyone's opinions about Madden, have anything to do with it not evolving. The only thing Madden should be focused on is reasonably representing applicable aspects of the NFL in the game, period. If whatever suggestion or want, anyone has doesn't jive with that, Tiburon should ignore it. Is this not the mission statement of every EAGC affiliated with Madden, to have the most reasonably realistic game possible and if not then why are they affiliated with a simulation game outside of MUT mode?

I don't speak for other EAGCs; I speak for myself. My own goal is to help make Madden a more realistic representation of NFL Football. And you aren't on the inside, so I can't blame you. But there are plenty of EAGCs that stick to their areas of expertise. We have plenty of Franchise guys, we have fewer gameplay guys. We have some that dabble in both. I'm not going, nor can I go into details over it (partially, because I'm bound by NDA within our group) but we all aspire to make the game more realistic and better, overall every year. Obviously, you can't please everyone. You can look for a fight, but I'm not going to answer the bell. I don't owe it to anyone. I just started in the group this year, and haven't been down to Tiburon one time for Madden 25 because of graduate school...but it doesn't mean I haven't shown a private video to the developers/other members of the group explaining an issue, why it's an issue, and how it could be rendered fixed. I do what I can every day to field responses from the community, and turn their responses into suggestions for the developers...regardless of a persons playing style, forum home, etc...If they know football, they know football...which is why most of the hatred I receive as tournament-style player who happens to EAGC is laughable.

Quote: Originally Posted by d11king

That's because playing Madden and playing football are two different things. Fundamental generalization isn't what's holding this game back from evolving... That my breathren would be EA Sports, or we would have a game like The Show or NBA2K by now in 2013. Instead, we're heading into next-gen with an updated graphics and huge roster update of Madden 2006.

Okay, you said if right there. Playing/coaching real football vs. playing Madden NFL football on a video game console are two completely different things. Why did your original post say that you don't play online games vs. real opponents because guys that use a video game tactic "don't know football" if you were so quick to admit that the two are different from eachother?

As for what I meant about people generalizing the Madden community into two sects...I won't retract it. The fact that players within the Madden community have a disconnect about how the game should be played is the reason that it's so hard to improve the game. Big FN Deal can try to tell me what my mission statement should be; but there is literally no other gaming community out there like the Madden community. As someone who frankly doesn't care about sim vs. tourney debates and has sat back and watched for years without ever taking part in a sim vs. tournament debate; I see a group of tourney players who play the game for what it is while making clear, concise, and explicit methods to take care of exploits in the game JUST AS MEMBERS OF THIS SITE DO; while many think or make these guys out to be morons for simply playing a video game a certain way. I'm not saying you are saying that we are idiots. In fact, I agree with a lot of what you said regarding no-huddle, and the OP of this thread...but I notice it from the tone of many of the posts...especially some of them I've quoted in this multi-quote response, the type of generalizations I get from posters just because I play a certain way. My play is a certain way, my efforts to make the game realistic are pure, and remain pure through the patching process as well..which is why it's odd to me that people are so insulting at times (again, not saying that you are).

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

In principle, you may have a point. That said the fact that this is coming from a CGer is down right depressing. The stupidity of EA/Tiburon's decision to "water down"(as reputed by many attributed to Ian Cummings' comments) or leaving out adaptive AI for "competitive settings" (IE ranked matches or any game setting at or above all-pro) is down right atrocious!!! Not even the worst player in the NFL is gonna give up the outside slant by a TE repeatedly over and over in the same game out of the same look - the fact that adaptive AI is either not in the game period or is neutered in the name of "tourney micro management BS" is unforgivable. I have no problem with people running the same three plays over and over because it works - I have a seriously huge problem with the fact that it works!

Why is it depressing? Because I feel that there needs to be an onus on the player to man up and play ball at times?

Is it frustrating that outside slants get open time and time again against man coverage? You bet it is! But do you also realize that 2 Man Under with the shading adjustment that was re-added back into Madden absolutely shuts down people who abuse smarted out routes and slants to the outside? Absolutely locks it down. You're talking pick 6 if someone throws a slant to the outside to the TE vs. man coverage shaded to the outside.

I've heard the term "adaptive AI" thrown around all the time since I've listened more closely to our community. It sounds great. AI that will jump a slant after you've thrown it a couple times. Could easily end up eerily similar to "psychic/cheating" DBs that people hate (myself included). I hate nothing more than sending my X/Z receiver on vertical after vertical, only to call a 10-15 yard dig after seeing so much man, and have the DB run the in route before my WR does. Sure, it's not adaptive AI. But essentially what people refer to as adaptive AI, in terms of DBs/coverage is a DB that will jump a route after they've seen it once or twice. My question is...what is the coding rule you suggest? How is it best implemented. Because I forsee a lot of complaints about psychic DBs if something like that were to be implemented. And I honestly see no reason add adaptive AI when I've seen myself that you can coach up your DBs pre-snap to take away most in breaking routes/outbreaking routes with the individual shading assignments. I enjoy the control I have....part of the chess match of the game. Even if my DB gets beat 2-3 times on an out-slant; I see it. I recognize it. I make the shading adjustment, and force my opponent to think twice about it from there on out.

The whole adaptive AI thing sounds great...but I need someone to actually describe what it is they expect out of adaptive AI before I buy into it. No offense to those who want it...but it's hard for me not to hear it and think that it's just another implementation that takes away the user strategy part of the game and adds more randomness (who really enjoyed the randomness of fumbles in Madden 12, and the randomness of open field hitstick fumbles by the 49ers this year?) Some things become completely random, and then it doesn't really turn into a player vs. player game after that. It's awfully hard to play a game when you don't know when the heck your DBs are going to jump/not jump a certain route because they are adapting to tendencies. I'd just rather have the plethora of pre-snap menus that we have (and even add more options) and coach up players myself. But everyone has their own views....adaptive AI sounds nice, but I don't want it overtaking my game and taking the clipboard out of my hands.

Quote: Originally Posted by KANE699

I rather do not enjoy the fact that we have some arcade gamers as game changers, seems to defeat the purpose of creating a realistic game/gameplay.

Oh, so me playing a game for what it is/playing to win means that I have no knowledge of real football, football techniques, playcalling, strategies, or personell? And people wonder why I think there's a fundamental problem in the Madden community stemming from generalizations about a player based on how he plays a video game.

Again, many of the BEST Madden video game players....guys, that by your standards, play to win at any cost/play cheeseball/whatever...those guys are the first to step up and tell me when something is wrong with the game...long before anyone else ever comes across it in a ranked game. You think that everyone who abuses wheel routes, TE seams, motion-snapped fades, and TCPs EVERYTHING to the inside doesn't know that there's something unbelievably unrealistic with that being so effective? We aren't mindless idiots. So I honestly really don't appreciate the generalization that because I'm an arcade player, I'm somehow incapable of:

1. Seeing something blatantly wrong with the game.
2. Reporting it to the developers/other members of the EAGC
3. Articulating myself in a way that allows us all to have a better game in coming years.

Just because I play a game to win doesn't mean I can't look at the game and say "Man, the disruptive 2-tech in the Tampa 2 doesn't nearly affect the offensive line enough in this game; and that goes for every linemen in 4 down-linemen sets" or "Wow, this Ballhawk (even though I'll use it all day with whoever I happen to be usering) is really overeffective and unrealistic and should be 'Trait' or 'Attribute' based." We aren't bumbling, drooling idiots. We are completely capable of having a football debate with anyone else in the community. We totally understand problems, fixes, and implications of those fixes on the game and our community. So I rather do not enjoy the fact that you determine my worthiness as a EAGC by how I happen to play the game once it's put on a shelf.

[Big FN Deal]

@ZAN, let me start with I appreciate you taking the time to respond and even though I disagree with much of what you have stated, I respect your opinion. The "looking for a fight" reference meant I feel strongly about it being contradictory to me for there to be anyone affiliated with creating a NFL football simulation video game that doesn't believe applicable realism is priority one. I get nothing out of trying to insult anyone's intelligence or football acumen in person or on the internet, so that's definitely not my intent. Also I have no "hatred" toward any person over a video game and I want to be clear that I have an issue with the message, not the messenger. My issue is with the type of POV expressed in this statement.

"And I honestly see no reason add adaptive AI when I've seen myself that you can coach up your DBs pre-snap to take away most in breaking routes/outbreaking routes with the individual shading assignments. I enjoy the control I have....part of the chess match of the game. Even if my DB gets beat 2-3 times on an out-slant; I see it. I recognize it. I make the shading adjustment, and force my opponent to think twice about it from there on out."

It's been stated repeatedly that some people, myself among them, don't see how someone that feels the game is realistic enough as is can be a strong advocate for more realism.

I ain't mad at you for enjoying Madden, I would like to enjoy it too but that's kind of hard if someone like yourself is indifferent or even worse, resistant to things I want to see in the game because you feel they are a threat to the way you play or they're unnecessary. The vast majority of the things I read "sim" gamers asking for are options, for example many of us have been asking for a separate "simulation" setting for years, to no avail. So it's odd having someone trying to call out "sim" gamers for being divisive when it's self described tourney players that I constantly see behaving as if someone is out to take something away from them, calling "sim" gamers whiners that need to man up and all manner of divisive garbage.

Again, you or whoever else that enjoys Madden, that's great and no reasonable person wants to take that away. Those of us that currently don't enjoy Madden or feel there is way more realism that NEEDS to be added would like to see that happen so we can play the game how we like to, too.

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by ZAN

Why is it depressing? Because I feel that there needs to be an onus on the player to man up and play ball at times? Is it frustrating that outside slants get open time and time again against man coverage? You bet it is! But do you also realize that 2 Man Under with the shading adjustment that was re-added back into Madden absolutely shuts down people who abuse smarted out routes and slants to the outside? Absolutely locks it down. You're talking pick 6 if someone throws a slant to the outside to the TE vs. man coverage shaded to the outside. I've heard the term "adaptive AI" thrown around all the time since I've listened more closely to our community. It sounds great. AI that will jump a slant after you've thrown it a couple times. Could easily end up eerily similar to "psychic/cheating" DBs that people hate (myself included). I hate nothing more than sending my X/Z receiver on vertical after vertical, only to call a 10-15 yard dig after seeing so much man, and have the DB run the in route before my WR does. Sure, it's not adaptive AI. But essentially what people refer to as adaptive AI, in terms of DBs/coverage is a DB that will jump a route after they've seen it once or twice. My question is...what is the coding rule you suggest? How is it best implemented. Because I forsee a lot of complaints about psychic DBs if something like that were to be implemented. And I honestly see no reason add adaptive AI when I've seen myself that you can coach up your DBs pre-snap to take away most in breaking routes/outbreaking routes with the individual shading assignments. I enjoy the control I have....part of the chess match of the game. Even if my DB gets beat 2-3 times on an out-slant; I see it. I recognize it. I make the shading adjustment, and force my opponent to think twice about it from there on out. The whole adaptive AI thing sounds great...but I need someone to actually describe what it is they expect out of adaptive AI before I buy into it. No offense to those who want it...but it's hard for me not to hear it and think that it's just another implementation that takes away the user strategy part of the game and adds more randomness (who really enjoyed the randomness of fumbles in Madden 12, and the randomness of open field hitstick fumbles by the 49ers this year?) Some things become completely random, and then it doesn't really turn into a player vs. player game after that. It's awfully hard to play a game when you don't know when the heck your DBs are going to jump/not jump a certain route because they are adapting to tendencies. I'd just rather have the plethora of pre-snap menus that we have (and even add more options) and coach up players myself. But everyone has their own views....adaptive AI sounds nice, but I don't want it overtaking my game and taking the clipboard out of my hands.

To the underlined, it is a mistake to have a single play be the "go to" for stopping anything - multiple defensive concepts can be employed to stop those routes and that should be reflected in Madden.

To the italic, a DB jumping a slant when it is run over and over and over out of the same formation - seems perfectly reasonable to me - it doesn't need to be "psychic DB" if EA had the DB "sit" on that route then it opens up a bigger, and IMO a far more intellectual "chess match" cuz now it opens up the sluggo or the wheel route if we are talking TE slant out. The scenario you spoke of with a DB jumping a route you "set up" by going deep a few times and then doing a dig is the exact opposite - in your scenario - depending on where the "help" is or is not the DB should be thinking "deep route" again. The deep comeback (really a 12 yard out) is money against coverages it should not so easily beat - and you can run it repeatedly even if your opponent shades every play - it matters little and is not representative of NFL caliber defenses - run that route repeatedly against even an average CB with over the top help and he is going to sit down on it and the QB is going to be answering post game questions about that pick - but not in Madden cause heaven forbid the AI do anything logical.

How about abused blitz setups? Some you can't stop even when you know they are coming without twenty second setups and motions - total BS - OL players are too smart for that - I played a game where a guy came free from the right every time - I adjusted, but the adjustment I had to make was not representative of how a NFL team would handle that repeated tactic.

To the bold, defensive adjustments are fine - keep em, maybe get rid of the extra button press for "individual coverage adjustments", but if you are making your own adjustments then you will have nothing to worry about - but when I place my best CB on a player and he watches the same route over and over, despite having deep help and 90 plus man cover, plus 90 plus PRC and AWR - that is not realistic - say it is a slant - once or twice with out my "input" cool, but when you go back a third time - especially from the same exact look/formation I should not have to tell my DB to sit on that route - fact is I should maybe be thinking of an adjustment - if I think my opponent has a brain at all - to take away the sluggo. That is where this annoying crap from "tourney" style guys gets annoying - their is no strategy involved in running comebacks and hooks - if Adaptive AI where in the game it would add strategy because you could be setting a guy up for the deep "out n up" or "stop n go" routes.

But we don't get that kind of thinking man's game cuz EA is busy catering to people who foolishly think "you should micromanage every darn detail of every play".

Adaptive AI should be tied into PRC/AWR and the better the player the more quickly he can "adapt" and obviously based on his ratings the more difficult he would be to "set-up" because when you go "slant, slant, sluggo" his PRC is gonna see that earlier in the route than a player with poor PRC - obviously MCV and ZCV should influence this as well - if the opponent runs a slant every time he goes I-form and is not running a flat or something behind it - then the flat cover should stay on the slant longer - which again adds to strategy cuz now you can "setup" wheel route by HB or screen that sucks in the DB towards the middle with WR running same slant and the screen coming behind it.

If it is governed by PRC/AWR (and of course can be superseded by human controlled adjustments) it actually adds a huge amount of depth to the strategy of the game...

The idea that the user should have to make every adjustment is nearly as backwards as the thinking that says a user's input on the controller should over ride the capabilities (ratings) of a player - user timing no matter how "perfect" should not make X Player jump higher than X Player should based on his ratings...