To those who say "it's just Madden 2005 part 2"

[d11king]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

Pick up and play (casual gamers) will always have rookie and pro settings - and that is where pick up and play style needs to end. The game should be built for the crowd, much larger group than given credit for, that wants a representation of the actual skill and strategy of NFL football. EA should be building Super cars and tuning them for racing scenarios (All-Madden sim realism game), then having "options" for buyers like comfortable suspension, traction control, leather heated seats - comforts for pansies who just want to own a shiny toy - that would be rookie and pro difficulty level...

Would a big problem be that they are trying to please both sim/casual fanbase? First 2K I bought was 2K7 after that travesty they call NBA Live. 2K7 was a good game when I bought it, definitely much better than their competition, and when you look at the 2 games front cover, one would say #1 Selling blah blah, the other, #1 Simulation. I'm too lazy to provide sales numbers, but I'm going to guess 2K7 and Live 2007 were probably around the same ballpark when it came to sales. I can't speak for Live, but 2K over time improved VITALLY. Gameplay wise, franchise mode, features, graphics, controls. I remember when they brought back the Jordan as their marketing tool and big feature, but they completely revamped the controls, including isomotion, post-game, etc. bringing in Crew Mode, my player... they didn't say, "hey here's Owner Mode, and we spent 8000 hours perfecting this, while leaving sidelines and crowds untouched, lack of foot planting and actual REAL-TIME physics movement, and we know we haven't touched the WR/CB interaction since, who knows how long, but we'll put it in next year that way, we have something we can say our game improved in."

2K in my mind has never been a "pick up and play" type ordeal. Sure, pass with A, shoot with X, jump with Y, that's all a pick up and play gamer would really need to know. But then you talk about things like, the post game, isomotion, "hey how do you tip-dunk?", "how did you do that step back jumper.... that shimmy shake (KG) post move?" Madden is much simpler because its really just a hike, press a button to throw and catch, and run forward. Defense just press X or flick the right stick to tackle.... that's pick up and play alright.

But shouldn't it be much more than that? CPU AI for the life of me, down 4 on their own 30 yard line, never fails to call a timeout at the 1:01 mark and the next 2 plays. QB vision was something I thought was going to help shape the game of Madden as far as simulation, the difference between Peyton Manning and Mike Vick, that feature was outstanding and IMO was the future, but the pick up and play gamer wouldn't have succeeded with that, "it's too much work"; so is being a quarterback. Defenses are easy to read, the thread of the human error element here on OS (great thread btw), mistakes should happen, Cowboys secondary blew so many coverages last season, in Madden they never do, and this is just GAMEPLAY wise.

One of the problems I have with Madden, is they add all this color and confetti, and other new (old) features to the game without fixing the root of the problem, which is the gameplay. In M15, if the dev team didn't touch anything in the game except gameplay, AI and presentation, I am willing to bet my yearly salary (you'd still be broke) that each and every person would be completely find with that. Get your gameplay right first, and then from that point on, add in all your little tricks and gimmicks the following years, tuning up gameplay, tuning up AI yearly, then we'd have the Madden we should be getting.

Instead, we get the tricks and toys, cute lil' features, and "Hey! We got Barry Sanders in the game!", the travesty of a mode they call UT and a freshly coated paint of gameplay, which seems like they spent a month touching up, so we can get still sale to the pick up and play gamer, cause we know the sim-games will pick it up.

In my experience, 2K7-2K9 was a good lil' jump, nothing drastic. 2K10 (Kobe) was a better game, much improved, 2K11 (Jordan) was the grand scheme, that was the "this is what our game is going to be." 2K12 (I bought Magic) expanded upon 2K11, adding more classic teams, I believe they changed some controls around, added Crew, this is the game that said, "our gameplay is perfect, now we will add more features, and fix some of the older ones", 2K13, hmm.. I don't really know how I view this game, in some ways it feels like a step back, but I'm sure in 14, they'll fix alot of the issues that were in the previous game, because that's what they do.

M25 should be, "this is what our game is going to be", down to the gameplay, then every game after that should be an improvement.

"Put your best foot forward, so when you take your next step, it's in a better position." - Hey I just made that up right now I'm so inspired hahaha

[UMhester04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trackball

Seriously, have you PLAYED Madden 2005 lately? Go on, boot it up if you have it. And if you don't, it's super-cheap on eBay or Amazon. We get it--it had a ton of awesome features that sound like they were a ton of fun. This was necessary, due to ESPN NFL 2K5 coming out that year. I will grant, competition usually drives quality. But ask yourself: Has Madden 2005's on-field gameplay really aged THAT well? Would you REALLY rather play that than Madden 12 or 13? I'm seeing people raising a big fuss over such minor things, like whether players are planting their feet before a move, or whatever. Seriously? THAT'S your big problem?

Stopped reading after this.

[kingsofthevalley]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

I disagree with this, for several reasons. Sure, last gen had nice controls. But some tend to forget that the turn-on-a-dime controls did exist last gen. I really think a lot of people have forgotten what last gen played like. The controls weren't that much better. They certainly were not more realistic. You could make players turn 90 degrees instantly from a dead sprint. Yeah, the controls were responsive and sharp, but that didn't make them more realistic. Now, NHL94 was mentioned. I happen to still play NHL94, and I enjoy it immensely. Does that mean NHL94 had better controls, etc? No. But it's just a fun game, overall. The current NHL games beat it on many levels, controls included. But NHL94 is a favorite of mine that I still enjoy. Just because I enjoy NHL94 still, but traded away NHL13 after three months, that doesn't mean NHL94 has better controls, etc. It means I enjoy that gameplay overall.

Dude, no way. I still have the old gen games and still play them from time to time. I'm also a stickler for the small details. You most certainly COULD NOT turn on a dime in the latest iterations of the old gen Maddens. Not at all. There was a huge demographic of players that actually complained about the players turning like a "boat" in some sort of focus group which made the dev team implement that turn on a dime, skating feeling (more user control) that we currently have.

The devs sacrificed realistic movement for more user control because of that focus group (which had to be casual players with them being the bigger demographic). Everyone gets their shine under the sun for a while. Last gen player movement was geared more toward realism (Good for the sim players). Last couple of years on current gen was geared more towards user control (casual players). The devs realized the mistake they made and now the game is moving back to a more sim based play as you can see with the reimplementation of the hard cuts and the attempt at bringing momentum back. The cuts, "perception of weight", and momentum were all present and accounted for last gen. Its been completely missing in action current gen. All facts.

[Blazelore]

Quote: Originally Posted by hanzsomehanz

I think the stigma stems from *hi definition standards. In the age of hi definiton gaming I have come to expect a hi definition gaming experience from Madden. Hi Def not in the single sense of pixels but AI and overall level of definition in the gameplay. If we look at how the generation started and then look at the midpoint between then and now - why is it far reaching to assume what we have now in a full fledged gourmet franchise mode, infinity physics engine, and the expected hi def graphics could have arrived sooner? Was the resource talk just a myth? On the subject of progress, when hit stick and vision cone were introduced Madden was at the apex of revolutionizing concepts in football gaming. Did these features mature since? On the subject of community, why is the casual gamer not offered a skill cam where they can improve upon isolate skills? I did not foresee Madden losing so much weight in the age of hi definition gaming. I expected to see madden looking like the heavyweight champion - robust, chiseled, and Winning. You ask what we have been given and I propose the following figure of speech; A millionaire donates 1M of his 100M yearly salary. A blue collar man donates 3,500 of his 35,000 salary. Who was more generous in their deeds? In the span of 7-8 years, one big lump sum in the final year does not somehow erase your past debts of greed - your character is still spotted with greed. What has Madden done with their production time to excuse why what we now have coming in M25 could not have already been here in Madden 07? 08? 09? To whom much is given much is expected. The blue collar worker who is steadily giving ten percent of his meat earnings back to the community is in the long run offering more in stability. Madden has given us about 1% of what is owed to us each year and now on the cusp of the next gen they prepare to deliver on all their past owed dues? So now we have most of what we started with returning in M25 plus the compliment of a revised physics engine. In the end, has Madden even given us 10% of our money's worth back at the end of this generation period? We have fattened their pockets and how have they fattened our bottom line profits? They want more from us in microtransactions and to do what? How is that supplemental income growing the product of the game? What are they doing with the so much more that we give them? If they were not being so stingy and stodgy with their delivery on the meaty toppings the angst in most would be extinguished. 1% in the first six years. 5% in the final two years. What kind of delivery model is this? I cannot say they are even delivering 10% additional value in M25 because that base value was already delivered on years back as this thread topic ratifies. Sent from my SGH-I727R using Tapatalk 2

You speak for a lot of people when you say this. I mean I think it's great that they're getting the game back where it should but this whole generation was a complete waste. People don't understand how hard it is to give them a clean slate when the reason they're still in business is because of us. I haven't played a full season of Madden in like four years because it now bores the heck out of me. You can't keep overlooking the flaws it has and you have no other alternative to play. And this isn't a knock top the game changers because I do believe most of them want a great game but let's keep it 100. Some of them just like being able to see what goes on behind the scenes whether their feed back is considered or not. I don't understand why they even created ultimate team. Take those resources and build a damn good game first before you try these experimental modes. Head coach came out in 2008. It's 5 years later. There's no reason why that entire simulation isn't our franchise mode by now.


Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

[d11king]

Quote: Originally Posted by Blazelore

You speak for a lot of people when you say this. I mean I think it's great that they're getting the game back where it should but this whole generation was a complete waste. People don't understand how hard it is to give them a clean slate when the reason they're still in business is because of us. I haven't played a full season of Madden in like four years because it now bores the heck out of me. You can't keep overlooking the flaws it has and you have no other alternative to play. And this isn't a knock top the game changers because I do believe most of them want a great game but let's keep it 100. Some of them just like being able to see what goes on behind the scenes whether their feed back is considered or not. I don't understand why they even created ultimate team. Take those resources and build a damn good game first before you try these experimental modes. Head coach came out in 2008. It's 5 years later. There's no reason why that entire simulation isn't our franchise mode by now. Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk 2

"Keep it 100" LMAO I haven't heard that in ages, thank you for giving me something to add back to my vocabulary.

Anyway, I agree 1000% with this. Ultimate Team was a complete waste of time, I played the mode once when it first came out, and stopped cause there was no way I was going to play this mode with Tom Crabtree as my starting TE, and Charlie Batch and Aaron Corp battling it out at the QB, when the guy I'm playing has nothing but all-pro's over there. And I'm sure as hell not about to spend money trying to get these players, when at the end of the day I'm not winnin any money just for being undefeated. There are far more important things to worry about the Ultimate Team.

You can't add 22" spinners, neon lights, a big exhaust pipe, beast *** speakers, and lower your car when your cars engine isn't even running correctly. And that is exactly what Madden has done.

[I Peench]

Quote: Originally Posted by Broncos86

Every year, something is re-added that was taken away. This entire console generation has been about getting back to where Madden once was. It took the ENTIRE generation to do this.

Look, they rebuilt Madden from scratch for the 360. It was a huge mistake, and one I'm sure the current developers still bang their heads on the wall about. Bottom line? THey won't make the same mistake moving forward - and the seamless integration of the ignite engine is proof positive they are looking to take that next step without compromising everything.

They've had to rebuild everything, they didn't purposefully take everything out. These are different developers and one should be encouraged they have been so responsive to the community.

[I Peench]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trackball

Seriously, have you PLAYED Madden 2005 lately? Go on, boot it up if you have it. And if you don't, it's super-cheap on eBay or Amazon. We get it--it had a ton of awesome features that sound like they were a ton of fun. This was necessary, due to ESPN NFL 2K5 coming out that year. I will grant, competition usually drives quality. But ask yourself: Has Madden 2005's on-field gameplay really aged THAT well? Would you REALLY rather play that than Madden 12 or 13? I'm seeing people raising a big fuss over such minor things, like whether players are planting their feet before a move, or whatever. Seriously? THAT'S your big problem? No, the game's not perfect. The number of perfect video games since 1972 can probably be counted on one hand--and the more bytes of code there are, the more bugs will slip through on launch day, especially when you're forced to work with a development cycle of just one year, like EA Tiburon. Remember that "Greg Jennings with a broken leg" video from Madden 10? Look again at how Aaron Rodgers scrambles. His legs move, but his torso stays in place, like a puppet. (WARNING FOR LANGUAGE.) This was just four years ago. It's the little things like this that get fixed every year, one by one. We got better scramble animations later, I'm sure. But seriously, why are we raising a fuss over such tiny things that few people outside these boards will notice, like the exact shade of the team helmets? We're sounding like Al Davis, when he would start every year by closely analyzing the new shipment of uniforms, making sure they weren't gray. They were silver and black. He would not have it otherwise. (ADD geek-out moment: I hope Al Davis is one of the legendary owners in M25. What a quirky guy. And yes, he really did that, every year.) But would the vast majority of players notice? I certainly wouldn't. And I wouldn't care, as long as the product on the field played well. The Texans could wear yellow, for all I cared, as long as I was having fun. Yeah, the defensive-line play could be better, I admit that. That's important to me, since I like to control a DE when I don't have the ball. But come on, can't we show some love for Josh Looman and the other EA Tiburon devs? We give them a lot of flak for "this game is the same as last year," but we forget just how hard it is to program something of this magnitude. That's why I'm giving Looman the benefit of the doubt when he says that editing ratings would cause a lot more harm than good (introducing bugs regarding goals and such), so maybe once the game is out, a programmer on here or at Under The Code can get really down and dirty with the source code (like how people proved that SimCity 2013 CAN be run offline just fine for a while), and prove to us whether or not changing ratings after a franchise starts really does cause as many bugs as Looman claims. If it does, Looman is vindicated. If it doesn't, then we can blame the suits for not letting us do this more easily. (That said, I'm not sure that's legal...in terms of the law. But it would answer a lot of questions.) All I'm saying is that I'm giving Josh Looman and the dev team the benefit of the doubt. I'm still really excited for the new Owner Mode, and the chance to kick Jerry Jones and Bud Adams' butts out on the street and show them how a team SHOULD be run. Yes, Madden 06 was a mistake. A huge mistake. But I'm willing to blame the suits for that--perhaps they ordered the game be gutted. We all remember that CGI trailer they showed, which led to a particularly well-regarded Penny Arcade strip in 2005, coining a term using the name of a male bovine, plus the last four letters of "screenshot." (Afraid to put the actual word here, in case I get a yellow card for bypassing censors. But I'm sure you know the word.) But if this game is as good as I'm hoping, (almost) all is forgiven. There are little things to fix, yeah. But the point is that they get the BIG things out of the way first--making sure the game doesn't crash and whatnot. I remember NHL 12 crashing a lot on my PS3, and that was never patched (NHL 13 hasn't crashed at all yet, thankfully). It doesn't matter how good a game looks or plays if it's unstable. Keep at it, Josh and Tiburon. I'm rooting for you.

Not often I see such a logical post around these parts. Bravo.

I despise the notion that they purposefully took everything out of the game such that they could re-introduce it and sell it as a "new" feature. As I said above, the dev team made a HUGE mistake by rebuilding the game from the ground up on the 360. They thought doing so would be the best chance at creating a truly "next gen" experience, when in actuality it was a marginal product stripped of all the features they'd built up. They won't make the same mistake again, and the ignite engine (the thought process behind it, not the engine itself) is reason to be optimistic.

[CarryTheWeight]

I recently purchased Madden 08 on PC from Amazon as part of a bundle and installed some mods. It may not look amazing graphically, but with present-day mods running at 1080P at 60 frames per second, it's a pretty great experience.

I wasn't a huge fan of last generation's gameplay when it was brand new, but it's aged pretty well from my standpoint, not to mention it's simple, more fun and can generate realistic stats, both in-game and through simulation. I had a pretty long running Franchise on Madden 09 for the original Xbox that lasted through the lifespan of Madden 09 through Madden 12 on Xbox 360.

I'll be honest --- I like the direction that Connected Franchise is going, but there's just something about the implementation of features in the latter days of last generation that just *worked*. Player progression, like CCM, was based on performance instead of a set "Potential" rating --- backups and sleepers would work their way up the depth chart and become big name, highly rated players. That's something you don't see very often on 360/PS3. Position battles meant a lot more and you had a ton of incentive to play Preseason games. Even the training camp mini-games had a purpose in the development of future stars.

Last generation's Madden games did a lot of things very well that haven't been equaled in the current games. Being the optimist I am, I hope Tiburon's current development team nails it in the next generation or even on this generation's version of Madden 25. Until then, I'll likely go back to playing the older games as a matter of personal preference.