Player rating/traits and confusion...

[rootofalleli]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

I agree, for the most part, but D. Ware is barely 260 lbs and most LTs weigh north of 300 so he is giving up 40+ lbs every down. "Pure physics" without regard to leverage, angles, and so forth won't really fix the main issues. The system is going to have to be fleshed out and designed completely differently than it is now...

I agree, actually - the 40+ pound size difference between an edge rusher and an OT isn't in real life (and shouldn't be in Madden) enough to give one the advantage. Ware succeeds by using his speed, strength, and technique. He would have a much worse time if he lined up as, say, a 3-technique DT every down, however, since he wouldn't be able to use his moves or his speed as well in a close space. He would probably get beat up and worn out more going up against a bigger man who could more easily take advantage of the size difference. So I think we're on the same page when it comes to that. One small disagreement: I wouldn't say letting mass determine everything is "pure physics" - more like "oversimplified physics."

Above I was responding to the concern about core animations for blocking and how they don't really acknowledge huge differences in ratings or in mass. We've all seen the videos of punters against elite DL/LBs. If 2 guys are lined up across from each other, animations will kick in for the blocker to stand up the defender for some patty cake. Even if someone like Ware with ideal size and great ratings lines up across from an awful backup or a guy who doesn't belong on the O-line, you get at least a few moments of the standard animation on many plays. Instead, we should see the inferior, lighter player getting immediately embarrassed almost every play.

Even though it shouldn't come to this, if EA would at least tell us what everything does, massive roster edits and slider adjustments could make for a better game. Every year people devote a huge amount of time to chasing this ideal, so a little help would be an act of mercy.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by rootofalleli

Right now many people here seem to feel highly rated blockers are a waste, and chasing after a slider set that makes differences apparent is a real quest. I don't think we'll see progress here when the difference between great and mediocre is 15-20 points and when animations don't exist for big men pushing little men out of the way.

It's not a complete waste, but yes, in my experience, it's not that blocking stats don't make a difference, but it's just not big enough because the whole line interaction mechanic seems to be hardcoded to work on a very small interactive frame. Even the worst blocker in the world will usually hold a block for a little while if you put him on the Oline, but that doesn't mean the blocking stats are completely meaningless. Jake Long will still hold a block longer and better and will not get beat as often as your punter will, but yes your punter won't be destroyed as he is supposed to be. Put that worst blocker in the world at WR and call a toss play in his direction, and you will usually see a way bigger difference compared to a big, strong blocking WR, the DB will usually just fly by your punter while the blocking WR will hold him much better.

So the stats definitely do matter in most situations, it's just that line interaction is the one part of the game that's really ****ed up to a certain degree.

[TheDelta]

Quote: Originally Posted by rootofalleli

Even though it shouldn't come to this, if EA would at least tell us what everything does, massive roster edits and slider adjustments could make for a better game. Every year people devote a huge amount of time to chasing this ideal, so a little help would be an act of mercy.

This so much. Right now, Madden is a nightmare of stats and sliders that we know nothing about, some sliders or stats that seem pretty self-explanatory do completely different things, some don't seem to work at all, and then there's something like if you look up the slider forums, some people have found out that penalty sliders seem to have sometimes massive impact on gameplay, how does something like that happen?

It feels like Madden is carrying a long a HUGE load of old code that has always been convoluted and messy, and constant tampering every year has only made this worse, I had hoped they'd start over from scratch for next gen so the game might at least have a solid base to build on, but I'm not so sure this is really what's gonna happen.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Trick13

I agree, for the most part, but D. Ware is barely 260 lbs and most LTs weigh north of 300 so he is giving up 40+ lbs every down. "Pure physics" without regard to leverage, angles, and so forth won't really fix the main issues. The system is going to have to be fleshed out and designed completely differently than it is now...

Physics would account for leverage, angles, momentum, degree/type of contact, etc.

It wouldn't be physics otherwise.

Ware's success is as much physics as anyone else's

[charter04]

Quote: Originally Posted by Grey_Osprey

I'm beginning to lean toward most of the ratings not having much meaning or very little at best. They exist simply to give the so-called ratings czar, Donnie Moore, the flexibility to mess with various ratings in an attempt to manipulate the OVR of players. Shortly after M13 came out, I saw two youtube videos that made me question if ratings really mean anything. One was of a created LT player who was 5' tall and I believe around 150 lbs, 0 STR, 0 PBK, 0 RBK, can't remember the speed. At any rate, he was put up against the Ravens D-line and blocked Suggs on every play. Another video was of someone who put 5 QB's on his offensive line. They were able to block the dline. I think Rootofalleli nailed it with - "... If EA could tell us what each thing does, that would dispel the perception that (1) they don't know or (2) some variables have no effect..."

The height weight don't matter but, the videos your talking about were skewed a little. He was using default all Madden and I think it was in practice mode. That mode is very different than a game. I did my own tests and the ratings do matter in certain areas. I put D. Ware against a player I made very low ratings and when sliders are adjusted right Ware ran over or just pushed him out of the way every time. Ratings matter with the right sliders.

[Trick13]

Quote: Originally Posted by KBLover

Physics would account for leverage, angles, momentum, degree/type of contact, etc. It wouldn't be physics otherwise. Ware's success is as much physics as anyone else's

Poor choice of vernacular on my part, apologies. I meant that everyone always mentions "physics" governing interactions, but true physics has to account for things that defy basic simplified "physics" equations that people throw around on here. Atwater vs Okoye, Ronnie Lott, even Roy Williams his first 2-3 years with Dallas defy the logic that some people throw around in these discussions. "Lowering the boom" can be likened to an art form - some guys have a knack for it, others do not. D. Ware is an amazing player but he hits like a girl compared to some safeties in the league that he outweighs by 40 or more pounds.

Now, if you get Sports Science to analyze the film they will show the big hitters using, whether they know it or not, physics to get more impactful hits. Knee bend, explosive drive through their body as they fully extend - my point was it isn't as cut and dry as the simple speed and mass equations that people have thrown around...

[gaberox]

So Im going to ask this again. Can anybody explain why all blocking attributes are set to 0 for every player in game? Impact blocking is the only one not at 0. Look at the depth chart ratings during a game and see all pass and run block ratings are 0.

[juggalotusx]

I really dont think any of the rating matter untill each player has there own animations specific to them to not only create individuallity but then no 2 plays would ever be the same.