Defense is ATROCIOUS!!!

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by over9000yards

It's wayyy too much of a pain in the *** to hot route, audible, shift zones, etc. on defense. The interface is too clunky and there isn't enough time to change things.

There is time, it comes with practice though. For instance one blitz I use to create a 3v2 opportunity (if my opponent blocks only 5 and doesn't slide protect) and free up one of my OLBs is Strike OLB 2 from 3-4 Even. In order to first turn this blitz into the 3v2 opportunity that I want I have to edge rush the line.

That is pretty quick but after that I then can play around with various coverage variations from this 2 deep shell. I can change the Cover 2 Sink type defense into an aggressive Cover 2 by putting the CBs in to flat zones or I can play a defense designed to take away corner, out, curls, and comebacks by putting them in curl to flat zones. I can also change it to a Tampa 2 of sorts by shading the zones outside and dropping one of the ILBs into a deep third.

I am able to do all of that before my opponent gets his players to the line of scrimmage. By the time you line up (which takes about 7 seconds) I've already made anywhere from 1 adjustment to 5 to the play. Once you get the hang of it they come really fast.

I agree its an absolute pain that its necessary to have to scheme up different coverage schemes and pressure schemes on the fly but it is doable. The system itself needs to be reworked and the playbooks (especially defense) need to be expanded but with practice making those changes to coverages isn't impossible.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by BlastX21

This would make sense, except that most people online don't actually read the coverage pre-snap. They just pick their money play and see if their money route is open, and if not, scramble (if they have a mobile QB). If they don't put much effort into reading the coverage, seeing where everyone is, and speculating as to what you might be calling, it largely defeats the purpose of disguising coverages.

This is true of lobby play, those guys are easier to play against than any decent sim player because there is no depth to their games. However, I avoid the lobby like a plague. I was 49-6 in ranked play in Madden 12 when I finally had enough of that style of ball and quit it for good. I only play guys who play sim, which is why I only got 4 games in today. It helps that the site I post most of my breakdowns on (Madden School) has 6 or 7 sim leagues that are running near full capacity at the moment I simply ask for a sim game on there and wait for a response.

A good sim player does read defenses, hell a good sim player reads your defense post snap which negates all those disguises but if you line up base against a good sim player they'll rip you apart because they understand exactly how to attack them. I can line up and show cover 3 (with some modifications to play curls instead of flats) to a random online guy and if it stops his money play he is done.

Quote:

Personally I find shading to be ineffective unless I'm facing a super-cheeser and I know what route he's going to run 100%. Shading covers the hell out of them if you guess the correct direction, but if they go any other way, the DB doesn't even come close to covering them. Edit: its a shame that you hasn't played users in 2 years - I would have been interested in discussing the differences between last year's defense and this year's.

I play a ton of robber coverage even in 2 man under so that i can safely shade the outside routes (as the CBs are shaded inside by default). I'll even leave the back completely open until they show they know that I'm doing that because I'd rather be able to rely on the cpu to make a play on a 7 route while I clean up the drags and slants than them make a play over the middle while getting burned for 20 yards a pop. I typically won't shade outside without a robber in the middle until they show me that they work exclusively on the sidelines.

This year's defense and last years defense are very similar with some small changes. Dig routes ran over 10 yards actually cause DBs to turn their hips which helps out the shallow cross series against man coverage, Smash beats cover 2 much more consistently this year, and Cover 4 does a better drop in the seams. Even run defense is similar though the improvements to the line make having a solid defense out of a bear front (players lined up over the center and both guards [typically either a 0 and two 2 techs or a 0 and two 3 techs] referred to as a double eagle front by some 3-4 teams) a good idea but the general principle is the same its just a little hard to execute from a base defense this year.

[baller7345]

Ok, a practical example of what I'm talking about.

What you are about to see (assuming the image uploaded correctly) is Nickel 2-4-5 Cover 1 Spy versus a Double Smash concept (something that kills a base Cover 1 in this game) from the Bears in an Empty set. This image was taken 3 seconds after the snap. This is default All-Madden.

The adjustments made were to shade the nickel back to the outside and since Cutler isn't scaring me with his legs too much to send the ILB in a spy on a curl to flat zone to help him out...or in this case he went for moral support since he didn't get over in time to play deep enough. I'm usering the safety in man coverage so shading him isn't necessary. In 3 seconds you'll see that 3 of rushers have got off their blocks with 2 (Perry and Matthews) getting ready to present McCarthy Cutler's head. Who is open? In 3 seconds I've forced the offense into a very unfavorable situation and in fact this play ended with a sack by Perry (Cutler moved slightly away from Matthews).



If the image doesn't load properly for anyone tell me and I'll try uploading it to my arena again.

[dat swag]

Quote: Originally Posted by over9000yards

It's wayyy too much of a pain in the *** to hot route, audible, shift zones, etc. on defense. The interface is too clunky and there isn't enough time to change things.

The tools are there but you are right...there is no time to make most adjustments when someone is in a hurry up or just getting to the line and snapping

[Franchise408]

Quote: Originally Posted by over9000yards

Why were B.J. Daniels and Brock Osweiler playing? Was it preseason or did you trade Kaep and Manning retired?

Pre-Season

Quote: Originally Posted by baller7345

I played online (I got in 4 sim games eventually) for the first time in almost two years and again I stand by what I've said before, Madden 11 was much worse on defense than this game. In those four games the scores were: 17-14 Me 17-10 Me 31-24 Him 31-14 Me In the three games I won I managed to get multiple coverage sacks and in the final game (which was a rematch against the opponent who beat me) I ended with 6 sacks and 4 interceptions. Pretty much all of the sacks were from a regular pass rush (Pickett had 2, Matthews 1, Donte Jones 1, Raji 1, and Perry 1). The game I lost and gave up over 30 points was more on me than anything since my execution of offense was terrible. 3 picks on my part helped him boost his offensive numbers and even then I only allowed 7 points after half time. If I hadn't tightened up after half time I would have given up over 40. The key to getting stops this year is the same as it is any year, adjusting on the fly to stop what your opponent is beating you with. Its a pain that we aren't given enough coverage variations (How can we still not have a proper Cover 7 in this day an age) to live just off play calling but its the world we are in. You have to shade, you have to use defensive hot routes to move zones around, and most importantly (especially against human opponents) you have to disguise. Make that cover 3 look like Cover 2 or 6 or 4. Make that zone blitz look like Cover 2 make that Cover 4 look like a safety blitz. Be organized but be chaotic and you'll get your opponent in situations that he doesn't want to be in. Organized Chaos is key, you want them to think you have no idea what you are doing until its too late.

In my league, we're waiting for the week 1 roster update / patch to begin our franchise, but in the meantime, we've set up a community and everyone has been getting in a bunch of scrimmages. I've been experimenting around with defensive hot routes, but:

Quote: Originally Posted by over9000yards

It's wayyy too much of a pain in the *** to hot route, audible, shift zones, etc. on defense. The interface is too clunky and there isn't enough time to change things.

It's hard to always get all your defensive hot routes in before the offense snaps the ball.

However, I think I'm on to some things. I've noticed what typically kills me the most in the passing game, and I've been experimenting around with stuff to remove myself from those situations that have been killing me.

One thing that's been killing me is Tarell Brown in press coverage. He's got good man coverage, but poor press, so if he's in tight coverage, he often gets beat. But while one person earlier stated that Cover 3 is deadly against human opponents, I've been working out of a 4 CB Cover 3, where Tarell Brown and Carlos Rogers drop into deep coverage, and then Nnamdi Asomugha and Chris Culliver, who are in the slot assigned to a flat zone, I hot route them to man coverage on the outside receivers. This doubles up those outside receivers, which are typically along the lines of Darrius Heyward-Bey (not great in real life, but when used right in Madden is a beast), Mike Wallace, and other real dangerous receivers (I named these 2 because these were two guys that I was able to shut down in numerous games tonight) with a deep zone and a man coverage. The strong safety covers the middle zone, and Eric Reid, who comes down in a hook zone, I instead put him in a curl/flat zone (purple, also manually controlled so I can improvise if I need to) to cover those pesky curl / out routes.

This basically covers tons of various routes, and allows my pass rush to get pressure, causing a good amount of coverage sacks, or some disguised coverages that lead to picks, since the other player isn't expecting the slot corner to man coverage the outside receiver, while the outside corner across from the outside receiver, who appears to be in man coverage, is instead dropping back into a zone. And I'm not really sacrificing any other zone coverages, because the only major shift is 2 flat zones getting hot routed to man coverage, and a side hook zone getting hot routed (and manually controlled) to a curl zone. So unless someone hits me on a screen, losing those flat zones doesn't really sacrifice anything.

Of course this defense hasn't been flawless, but tonight I definitely had a higher rate of sacks, picks, and incomplete passes by doing this than I was even last night.

[baller7345]

Quote: Originally Posted by Franchise408

It's hard to always get all your defensive hot routes in before the offense snaps the ball. However, I think I'm on to some things. I've noticed what typically kills me the most in the passing game, and I've been experimenting around with stuff to remove myself from those situations that have been killing me. One thing that's been killing me is Tarell Brown in press coverage. He's got good man coverage, but poor press, so if he's in tight coverage, he often gets beat. But while one person earlier stated that Cover 3 is deadly against human opponents, I've been working out of a 4 CB Cover 3, where Tarell Brown and Carlos Rogers drop into deep coverage, and then Nnamdi Asomugha and Chris Culliver, who are in the slot assigned to a flat zone, I hot route them to man coverage on the outside receivers. This doubles up those outside receivers, which are typically along the lines of Darrius Heyward-Bey (not great in real life, but when used right in Madden is a beast), Mike Wallace, and other real dangerous receivers (I named these 2 because these were two guys that I was able to shut down in numerous games tonight) with a deep zone and a man coverage. The strong safety covers the middle zone, and Eric Reid, who comes down in a hook zone, I instead put him in a curl/flat zone (purple, also manually controlled so I can improvise if I need to) to cover those pesky curl / out routes. This basically covers tons of various routes, and allows my pass rush to get pressure, causing a good amount of coverage sacks, or some disguised coverages that lead to picks, since the other player isn't expecting the slot corner to man coverage the outside receiver, while the outside corner across from the outside receiver, who appears to be in man coverage, is instead dropping back into a zone. And I'm not really sacrificing any other zone coverages, because the only major shift is 2 flat zones getting hot routed to man coverage, and a side hook zone getting hot routed (and manually controlled) to a curl zone. So unless someone hits me on a screen, losing those flat zones doesn't really sacrifice anything. Of course this defense hasn't been flawless, but tonight I definitely had a higher rate of sacks, picks, and incomplete passes by doing this than I was even last night.

I've manned up outside CBs in a Cover 3 but manning up the slot guys is something I haven't really tried much but I'm sure it is definitely a coverage that would catch people off guard.

If Brown is good at man coverage but bad a pressing you could do what I do with Shields if he so much as sniffs a WR with a good release. Use the individual coverage options to back just him off, even if you aren't confident with your ability to do that quickly you should be able to get one guy backed off.

One of my favorite things to do especially if I'm getting pressure from some obvious blitz looks is to pick a Cover 0 blitz like DBL Safety Blitz and hot route the safeties into some zones. They still move down into their blitz positions but they can now be used to jump short routes. Of course this still leaves you vulnerable over the top but its one way I like to bluff pressure and try to get my opponent to throw into the coverage.

[Franchise408]

I was looking for the individual coverage options all night tonight, but couldn't find them. I would do that in my 32 team league last year, until I developed enough experience to pump up Tarell Brown's press coverage, I'd have him play off on a cushion, while Carlos Rogers could hang in press a little bit better.

It's probably a lot easier for me to hot route my slot corners into man coverage when my slot corners are Nnamdi Asomugha and Chris Culliver. Both have good man coverage ratings, and the latter has good speed as well. Definitely good enough for either one of them to keep up with a receiver when either one has deep zone coverages over the top helping them out as well.

I might not have Seattle's cornerbacks, but depth wise, I have a good run of CB's. My safeties, on the other hand, are pretty horrid. Whitner is a good hitter, but sucks in coverage. Dahl is garbage. Reid, at least is young so over the course of a franchise, I'll beef him up, and he starts off as a good hitter. But losing Goldson certainly hurts.

[MadManCometh]

Seems to me that ratings mean very little. Everybody's a good blocker now? I play online. And every team I play has pretty good blocking. RT's and RG's rated 74 shouldn't be run blocking like their all-pro. And I could've sworn JJ Watt was the defensive player of the year last year and rated 99. But when I play with the Texans online, you don't even know he's in the game. SMH

Another thing I've noticed when playing defense, 3 and outs are rare when playing online. To stop the other team, it's either they score, or I get a turn-over. I feel my chances are much better at getting an INT then actually forcing a team to punt. I've never been a fan for 2K football and always liked Madden, but this is what happens when companies have no competition and monopolize the industry.