Drafting for your scheme

[nekolas]

Quote: Originally Posted by MST246

So,If this don't matter/that don't matter is the case,then $64,000 question is...what the hell was the reason for the scheme/player type system?

So that the AI will sign/draft/trade players that are true to the type of players the teams use in real life

[xboxxerx]

Quote: Originally Posted by TexInOrd

3-4 de's play one gap and are usually the size of guys like Justin Smith, Jj Watt, Richard Seymour etc. Think 6'0 + and 290 lbs +. They don't typically move to OLB when the team switches to a 4/3, nickel or 5/2. Typically the wolb in the 3/4 puts his hand in the dirt on these plays, and he retains his wolb duties, i.e. rush the passer and edge contain. The 3/4 de moves to the right or left dt position. When a 3/4 wolb puts has hand in the dirt in a nickel or a 5-2 set, he is rushing the passer and securing the edge against outside runs. 3/4 olb typically go from 6-1 - 6-5 and 240-260. Obviously there are some aberrations in size. 3/4 nose tackles have a two gap assignment and eat up space like Wilfork for the patsies. This lets the ilb's hold the middle against the run They should be massive men. Some 4/3 de's can move to 3/4 wolb. These are the 'tweeners' we hear about in every draft. Guys like aldon smith, whitney mercilus, demarcus ware. They played 4/3 de in college and moved to 3/4 wolb in the pro's. Aside from covering the pass slightly more, the wolb has essentially the same duties as a 4/3 de.

Thats what I was trying to explain Tex. Justin Smith was drafted to the Bengals as a DT in their 4-3. He only had 1 decent season with them. They let him walk. We picked up him and he has flourished since. I do totally agree with you.

[rc1882]

Quote: Originally Posted by xboxxerx

That isn't always correct Kwab. Majority of the time you see 3-4 DE's go to OLB in a 4-3 and visa versa. Spears on Dallas is a good example. They used him as a 3-4 DE. This year he is a OLB cause they switched to a 4-3. Aldon Smith with the 49ers. He goes to a 3 point stance when they go to nickel. Terrell Suggs on the Ravens is also a good example. When they are 4-3 he is a DE, when the Ravens are 3-4 he goes OLB.

You have the idea right with aldon and suggs but:

Aldon and suggs both play OLB in a 3-4 defense. 3-4 OLBs are generally pass rushers, which would project them to being DE in a 4-3(demarcus ware moved to DE in Dallas 4-3)

The ends and NT in a 3-4 are bigger guys usually that eat up space, since most 3-4 schemes are 2 gap defenses(each player responsible for the gaps on his left or right). They usually project to DT in a 4-3 scheme, although it isn't a direct correlation due to differences in the techniques used( although in madden, its pretty direct)

And that's why suggs and aldon drop to End in nickel packages, because of their pass rush abilities.

In a 4-3 the OLB are more coverage oriented, which makes it a more difficult transition for a DE to play 4-3 OLB

TL; DR:

4-3 DE are pass rushers
4-3 OLB more coverage
4-3 DT more run stop

3-4 DE more run stop(2 gap responsibilities)
3-4 OLB pass rusher
3-4 DT big space eating nose tackle


EDIT: my bad, I missed the fact that there was 3 pages total when I read it on my tablet. Should have kept reading lol

[KWilliams2003]

Without reading through three pages of posts, I can guarantee you that it is of the utmost importance that you draft for your scheme. Especially when you factor in slider adjustments and the kind of defense you play. Having a 3-4 Run Stopper doesn't mean much if you blitz all the time and use zone coverage. Whoever you play won't run the ball. They'll toss the ball all over you.

If you're about collapsing the front line within the box, then I'd say it matters. Because all you do is collapse the pocket and force your opponent to improvise... thus making a run stopper a more precious commodity.

[KWilliams2003]

Quote: Originally Posted by MuchToLearn

drafting/free agency for your scheme is nice and all and something i myself adhere to.. but be warned DO NOT, DO NOT, DO NOT!!! PASS UP A "BEAST" in favor of "Scheme" or "player type" here's an example: you scout a DT 99-STR 99-BSH 90-PMV 95-ACC but your scheme is 3-4 Nose Tackle but he is a 4-3 DT Pass Rusher.. DO NOT PASS HIM UP a "Beast" will be a "Beast" no matter what system he is placed under so have fun, but keep your eyes peeled for the monsters out there!

I strongly disagree with that assessment. If you scout for physical traits in a scheme that doesn't necessarily nurture them, he won't beast at all. He'll just get engaged at the point of attack. If you find a 3-4 DE that can physically dominate any would be blocker, great. But that doesn't mean anything if the QB can run or gets suckered into a block on an option/play action play.

I'd rather have an intelligent, mediocre physical talent than an idiot but can domineer.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by KWilliams2003

I strongly disagree with that assessment. If you scout for physical traits in a scheme that doesn't necessarily nurture them, he won't beast at all. He'll just get engaged at the point of attack. If you find a 3-4 DE that can physically dominate any would be blocker, great. But that doesn't mean anything if the QB can run or gets suckered into a block on an option/play action play. I'd rather have an intelligent, mediocre physical talent than an idiot but can domineer.

Are you playing Madden?

I'm sorry to sound so abrasive, but unless you are playing offline games with house rules and therefore are trying to minimise the amount of points you put up on the CPU, your point makes absolutely no sense.

In Madden there is no such thing as a scheme lol it is all about a handful of ratings.

WRs need catching skills and speed. That is it. No route running, no awareness, not even release (especially on M13 where press was broken). If you ever pass on a speed WR with hands for a slow guy with great release, good hands and jumping ratings, you are only holding yourself back.

If on D you draft a 3-4 DE with 99 strength and block shedding, but only 65 speed and acceleration and you run a 4-3, there is nothing wrong with putting him at DT and he will likely be dominant. You could probably put him at LE and he'd get you 10 sacks a year too.

Ratings in Madden are an illusion and used for depth chart purposes.

Awareness is crucial when simming though. That is true.

[KWilliams2003]

Quote: Originally Posted by infemous

Are you playing Madden? I'm sorry to sound so abrasive, but unless you are playing offline games with house rules and therefore are trying to minimise the amount of points you put up on the CPU, your point makes absolutely no sense. In Madden there is no such thing as a scheme lol it is all about a handful of ratings. WRs need catching skills and speed. That is it. No route running, no awareness, not even release (especially on M13 where press was broken). If you ever pass on a speed WR with hands for a slow guy with great release, good hands and jumping ratings, you are only holding yourself back. If on D you draft a 3-4 DE with 99 strength and block shedding, but only 65 speed and acceleration and you run a 4-3, there is nothing wrong with putting him at DT and he will likely be dominant. You could probably put him at LE and he'd get you 10 sacks a year too. Ratings in Madden are an illusion and used for depth chart purposes. Awareness is crucial when simming though. That is true.

Have you been playing Madden? There's traits incorporated now so ratings don't tell the whole story. And I've played with patchwork offenses and defenses and had more success with average players than superstars.

I know the point you were trying to make. It has some merit. But, realistically it holds no water because of slider adjustments and positional assignment. Suh is a dominate interior lineman but even he doesn't win them all against inferior talent.

So yeah... ratings play a part but not as big of one as you think while schemes play a bigger role than you care to admit.

[infemous]

Quote: Originally Posted by KWilliams2003

Have you been playing Madden? There's traits incorporated now so ratings don't tell the whole story. And I've played with patchwork offenses and defenses and had more success with average players than superstars. I know the point you were trying to make. It has some merit. But, realistically it holds no water because of slider adjustments and positional assignment. Suh is a dominate interior lineman but even he doesn't win them all against inferior talent. So yeah... ratings play a part but not as big of one as you think while schemes play a bigger role than you care to admit.

I think that is an illusion or an indication of your play style which can only be a good thing.
I play on Jarrodd's sliders and yes, having good MLBs with PRC and PUR make a difference instead of just speed, but my starting LOLB (3-4 D) is James Michael Johnson who is a 67 OVR and he gets me 12 sacks a year guaranteed. In fact, I purposefully sub him out to keep his sack numbers realistic for his ratings.
Trent Richardson is a beast but despite a 90 something carry rating, he is guaranteed a fumble a game. A WR I drafted called Clarence Richards has 40 AWR, 40 RTE but great hands and speed, and catches everything, gets wide open downfield and beats elite CBs on certain routes.

The existence of money routes, uncover able routes, unbumpable routes etc. negate the need for RTE, AWR, etc. so when playing madden, irrespective of your scheme you can have success.

Anyone with route runner scheme and drafts players specific to that is only holding themselves back, not putting themselves in a position for more success.

Again, if you CHOOSE to play like that, you will find success but it won't be any greater relative to playing with low AWR stud UDFAs that aren't a scheme fit. If you play with a high OVR player with good skills in essential ratings, they will perform, irrespective of scheme.

Regarding traits, again they do very little. Drops open passes will mess things up, clutch unbalances the game (especially with a clutch QB), consistency helps (but isn't a deal breaker, I've won games my whole team is on a cold streak) and everything else is for the CPU. Traits do not play into scheme one iota friend, sorry.