Why great players are a waste of time

[macbranson]

Quote: Originally Posted by maademperor

Also I feel like I get burned WORSE with bad players. at least the good players show up sometime throughout the game. the crappy lbs always get pancaked, the crappy WRs always drop passes, the crappy DBs always are getting burned. You are paying for less suck with most positions. true with a stacked defense I still have to work to keep the cpu under 28 or so points but I usually still finish with 4-6 sacks and an INT or three. sometimes the game seems to decide you are going to lose no matter what, and I just wish that it threw that kind of adversity at you more often with less cheating (pro bowl tackles/guards getting obliterated and missing blocks seems to be the preferred method for madden).

I think it's ridiculous to pay a lot of money or spend a bunch of XP or trade to get a player just so he's not as crappy as a low rated player. If I acquire say Richard Sherman or Mario Williams, I acquired that player to get top notch performance from him. If I have a team stacked with players of that caliber, I expect top notch performance from my defense. Like you said, I can barely hold the CPU under 300 passing yards a game despite me having what should be one of the greatest defenses in NFL history when you look at the players and their ratings. And I've been playing on All Pro because All Madden is even worse than the nonsense I've been going through. What's funny is that I can rack up a bunch of sacks and an INT here and there, but there's no consistent pressure or consistently good pass defense. It's like the game just throws you a bone every once in a while to pad your stats.

And the problem even exists on offense. I've bumped up my receivers catching and CIT ratings into the 90s and they still drop passes EVERY game. There has not been one game where my receivers don't drop at least one pass after getting hit. The problem isn't as big a deal on offense, though, because the passing game is relatively easy.

I've gone through many different slider combinations and haven't really found any that were successful toning down the passing game to a moderately realistic level.

[Robrain]

Problems on offense are twofold for All-Madden:

My players can almost never hang onto a pass if there is a defender anywhere near them. They get breathed on and it's an instant drop. A 5'11" FS can wander near my 6'8" TE, and my TE instantly pisses his pants.

Complete opposite for the opposing teams WRs, their 3rd and 4th stringers post right up on my defenders and never drop anything. My defenders usually can't stop them from catching the ball no matter how well positioned my defenders are.

Then of course, we can have some more fun with the touchback/safety BS:



In this one, Ed Reed outjumps my 6'8" TE at his own 2-yard line, intercepts the pass, then runs into his own end zone and takes a knee. Should be a safety. Of course, they magically get a touchback:

http://youtu.be/74ALIeW4d_w

[josefrees]

Hold on TC is complaining about defense and getting crushed and not able to do anything yet somehow held the computer on all madden to 19 points. Are you serious? Wtf??? I should be making this thread I guess because that makes no sense to hold the computer to 19 points and then say your defense doesn't work. The only way I can even hope to beat all madden with a defense just as good and I can only win when I get the ball last because there is never any defense (or rather mine gets shredded and I have to shred the opponent back.

[Ueauvan]

5 years into my 49ers ccm offline, using tweaked all madden and coach play

defence is 90-91 rated allegedly. willis, bowman, brooks and smith all studs still at lber. best lbers in the league hands down at man, zone you name it. solid dline (no justin) ray is 90 odd and the other 2 are 85+.
2 cbs 90+ 3 cbs 75+. whitner and reid both 93+.

using a mixture of formations in custom playbook, mixture of man, zone, blitz and all the combos possible. im 31st in the league in defence, 1st against the run and virtually last vs pass. compared to m13 pass defence is borked and almost no pressure on qb unless they are total numpties

[PGaither84]

A few key points:

First - Despite the NFL license, Madden is still video game football and not realsitic football. We just have to accept that. We can apply realistic principals, but in the end it is just a flawed video game. It plays more like high school level of football in it's "complexity" than it does NFL football. Very bland one read offense and defense with no gap control or anything like that.


Second - Slider settings can help improve your game play. It won't fix the games core flaws, but it can make the ratigns matter more. For example, custom All-Pro sldiers can make the pass rush NASTY. Back when M25 came out I had an All-Pro test franchise where I controlled the Dolphins and Cameron Wake had two 4 sack games and two more 3 sack games and came up just shy of the single season sack record with 21 (record is 22.5 if I recall correctly) Part of that is a core "flaw" where the RT is far easier for the user and the computer to beat off the line than the LT is and becasue All-Pro reespects the ratigns a lot mroe, but the computer QB's are STUPID and don't see wide open palyers and almsot never scramble to throw the ball away. On custom All Madden sldiers (I sugest RG3MVP's in the slider section) you can get decent play on both sides of the ball.


Third - Play calling on the defensive side of the ball. In my own experience, man coverage is almsot always a joke. Not only do I see a ton of palys where the defender reacts SUPER LATE to any cut by a WR or TE and leaves them wide open, but becasue it is man coverage and not zone, there is often tiems no one there to even make the tackle. I pretty much only have man coverage plays in my cutsom playbook for when I play agaisnt friends and need to stop screen passes.


There are only a few overlaod blitzes in Madden that work like they are supposed to, and only one or two run bltizes I would ever call. For the most part I stick to 3 core concepts. Not plays, but concepts, as I will call these out of any defensive formation, but they are effectively the same plays.


1) Cover 3 with a safety in a blue flats zone. I mostly call this agaisnt 2 WR formations as it helps me stack 8 in the box to stop the run while having decent coerage over the top agaisnt the pass. Against a balacned front (one WR on each side of the field), I will hot route the backside flat zoen to cover the buzz instead and will user the flats zone safety. I want to protect agaisnt any side line passes under my cover 3 corner such as the deep out, deep come back and corner routes. I will play the TE deep out on my way to the side line. If you can take that away, the AI tends to get lost/panic and might take sacks, or check the ball down to the flats. that's a win for you. Make them dump it off and keep palying solid football.


Agaisnt unblacned sets (two WRs on one side of the formation), I will tell the safety to play a hook zone and will user the backside flats with the same concept in mind, protecting against the mid level side line throws under the deep third.


2) Cover 2 sink. Usese the coverage audible (Y button pre-snap) and press up to spread the safeties to the sidelines. Press the corners and you have just created a more accurate Tampa 2. User the weak side outside linebacker and do you best Darrick Brooks impression on teams.


3) Cover 6. This I use on long yardage situations where I don't care about the run. be aware of the screen, but don't be afraid of it. If they get it, good for them. What I do here is make sure that the flats zone CB is on the singel receiver side of the field. If it is a balanced attack (two targets on each side of the line) I will audible out of this play into a cover 2 sink, whick I talked about above. Once the flatz zone defender is on the single WR side, I will tell him to play a yellow hook. This will take away all deep outs and come backs. I talk about these two routes a lot becasue they get WIDE OPEN agaisnt a normal cover 3 or agaisnt man most of the time. Then i use the coverage audible (Y button on the 360) and press the right thumb stick in the direction of that hook zone. If you don't, and the lone Wr is running a fly, the Safety won't get over the top to stop it and it is an easy score. Something I read earlier in this thread.


Also, by adjusting the coverage like this, you are effectively turning the cover 6 into a cover 3 cloud that works correctly... as opposed to the terrible cover 3 clouds already in the game. These two simple adjustments can be made very quickly. Pull the right trigger to find the weak side of the offense, flip if needed by pressing audible and right trigger, hook zone the CB by selecting him (it helps to hold the B button and simply point the stick at him) and shade the coverage. Once you know what you are doing, you can do it in like 3 seocnds or less. once I do that, I user strong side hook zone defender. I am just looking to take away the middle. I will bite and follow anyone threatening a deep post and will leave anyone underneith open. My core philosophy is that I want you to check down all day. Earn your yards. Earn your points. Earn your win. Nothing easy.


This one concept has lead to more sacks, interceptions, and jsut dead plays by the offense than any other single play in my football video game career. It is not imposible to throw on, but very diffcult. Most often it leads to check downs over the short middle which are tackled short of the first on 3rd or 4th and 7+ leading to punts and turn over on downs.

[dr. brawler]

Quote: Originally Posted by TheBuddyHobbs

What defense? Madden doesn't have that...

Ryte? lol

I jus user a LB or S n try to fuk up the CPUs offensive practice

[macbranson]

Quote: Originally Posted by josefrees

Hold on TC is complaining about defense and getting crushed and not able to do anything yet somehow held the computer on all madden to 19 points. Are you serious? Wtf??? I should be making this thread I guess because that makes no sense to hold the computer to 19 points and then say your defense doesn't work. The only way I can even hope to beat all madden with a defense just as good and I can only win when I get the ball last because there is never any defense (or rather mine gets shredded and I have to shred the opponent back.

I probably shouldn't have started off my post with that Seahawks loss as an example of what I'm complaining about. Even though it does reflect my inability to stop the pass, it comes across as me complaining about losing a game or my inability to stop the CPU from scoring even though the score was only 19-13.

With that said, I want to specify that my problem is the inability to specifically stop the pass, not limit CPU scoring or stopping the run. Even though I do typically allow over 25 PPG, this game was a bad example. I do want to touch on the problem of CPU scoring as it relates to the inability to defend the pass. Offense is fairly easy on Madden, something I think we all agree on. Since we're all so good on offense, we easily put up a bunch of points. Scoring 28+ points against the CPU is the norm for me and probably most other players on this forum. But the more you score, the more the CPU has to keep up and of course this leads to passing the ball more and inevitably a ton of passing yards. In my particular game, I was only able to score 13 points, so the CPU didn't have to go into catch-up mode and only put up 19 points. My team was also unusually bad at stopping the run in this game and they pounded with Lynch for the entire game. And even with a good running game, their BACKUP QB was still able to put up 300 passing yards on me.

PGaither84 made the point that Madden is a game and clearly it is and definitely plays like one. But why does the game not respect the rules and parameters of the game itself? It's a game that uses players ratings and a variety of algorithms for each play and various player interactions. So why is it that when I have all these players with these high ratings going up against players with substantially lower ratings, the players with lower ratings wind up being successful so often? When I played the Seahawks, their O-line was full of mediocre players. Their RT and RG were rated 74 and 75 respectively. They were up against my 95 rated DT and 99 rated LE, but they were able to dominate in the run game and gave the QB a ton of time to pass all day.

While I understand the game uses hot and cold streaks to create parity and sometimes even great players or teams can play poorly and be beaten on any given day, I hate how great players consistently perform poorly on this game. Ueauvan said his defense is near last against the pass. His team sounds like it's at least as good as the current 49ers real life team, but probably a lot better due to improvements from XP and better players he may have acquired.
It's a pervasive problem throughout the Madden community. I'm sure that his defense, like mine, is rated higher than best defense on the default roster, yet that defense plays like one of the worst in the league. And this has been a problem for years. Man defense is a joke, CPU receivers catch and hold onto every pass and the pass rush is as much of a joke as man defense. On offense, user receivers drop everything. It's all a real pain and really frustrating and really needs to be fixed.

[PGaither84]

Quote: Originally Posted by macbranson

PGaither84 made the point that Madden is a game and clearly it is and definitely plays like one. But why does the game not respect the rules and parameters of the game itself?

There is a long answer to that in the Madden next gen fórums where we are all talking about EA and the Game Changers progam and community day adn so forth. If you didn't know, I was invited to MCD back for Madden 11 and you can find my name in the credits. Basically, EA has not programmed the game to respect the sport we love in any deep or complex way. On the surface it looks kind of like football enough to fool someone who doesn't know better [most of their customers] and by design they have said they don't WANT to make it too realstic.

Quote:

It's a game that uses players ratings and a variety of algorithms for each play and various player interactions. So why is it that when I have all these players with these high ratings going up against players with substantially lower ratings, the players with lower ratings wind up being successful so often?

Becasue you said you are playing on All-Madden. Default All-Madden sets the user sldiers to 25 out of a 100 point scale. The computer is normally always set to 50 on that scale, so you go in with a disavantage. The out come of every match up. every route, tackle, throw and so forth all coem down to an internal dice roll that you can't see. that dice roll si modified by various factors including the palyer rating, who they are going up against if anyone, user input gives you a small boost [like it or not, you DO get a bonus for simply user controllign someone] the difficulty level [which is indipendent of said sliders to a minor degree liek AI decisión making], the sliders themselves [which might be the msot powerful alteration in this calculation for most situations] and an internal "success rate" modifier assuming all things were 0 vs 100. There might be more to it, but that is bascially what is happening under the hood for all 22 palyers and input.


When you play on default All-Madden, you go in with a disadvantage against the computer. Custom sldier sets help to even the odds. Palyign on All-Pro will give you a much more balanced and fair representation of the ratings, but the AI decisión making is not nearly as good as it is on All-Madden. Custom All-Madden sliders will force you to play a solid game by punishing you for making mistakes and calling bad plays. It will still cheat you from time to time. one way it cheats me that makes me want to turn games off is when i go to make a side line catch and have lots of space but it prevents my player's secodn foot from actually touching the ground and then slids and forces my player to make an imposible third step without the secodn one comeing down, then calling it incomplete. This happens on offens and defensive interceptions. It is the one thing that makes me range more than anything else on All-Madden.

Quote:

It's all a real pain and really frustrating and really needs to be fixed.

It "never" will be as that is what EA wants Madden to play like. They don't see it as a problema to be fixed. If you want a more realstic game paly experience, that is why they gave you sldiers to adjust the game play experience instead of doing it themsleves. No one likes it, but that doesn't change reality. the game will NEVER be a good representation of football, but we all feel your general frustration. We can either quit palying, or make some adjustmetns to the way we play. To at least try and have fun, that's what I do.


I still think that man coverage in general is a joke and should just be avoided. Don't look for man coverage corners. look for corners who are fast and can tackle. that's all you really need. Now, your front 7 can be important, but mostly for block shedding and hit power to knock the ball out loose [to force drops or fumbles alike]. Offensively, just get weapons to throw to and have a field day. You'll also need a decent QB too. You don't need a super star, but it helps. Running backs are alright, but I don't need a star. Jsut someone fast who won't fumble.


I just gave you some of the best and basic defensive tips I can for now in my last post. Try them out. Have fun, play solid D and you should do well. I took my 49ers to the Super bowl and smashed on the Broncos much like the real life hawks did. 5 interceptions with only one user pick and 4 sacks. I gave up 1 TD and 2 FGs in a beat down. force them to check down all game, and when you get a 3rd and 7+ go with my cover 6 and user cover well.