Interesting take on Madden's passing game probs.

[Sigma4Life]

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seanmac said:
Yes, you are talking about a fundamental problem with EA football games, both Madden and NCAA. They actually punish you for playing realistically and reward arcade football tactics. I recently repurchased a copy of NCAA after having playing mostly ESPN the last six months, and I have been having a disaster of a time on offense. Why? Because my ESPN skills are useless here. There is no reason to read the defense and throw the quick slant to the hole in the zone, because there is no hole in the zone- the linebacker will zoom over at warp speed to make the play. There is no point in checking down to the running back because the running back is going to drop the ball eight times out of ten, despite having no one within ten yards of him (or better yet, like what just happened, the running back will suddenly and unaccountably turn upfield while a safety rushes in from ten yards away to intercept a pass that was thrown when there was absolutely no one around the runner). Instead, you are rewarded for chucking the ball downfield (and part of that means you are rewarded for dropping back thirty yards to give your receivers time to get downfield). It's absolutely infuriating...and after a few games of it, it sends me racing back to ESPN.

I've been playing games where I take over the offense for both teams, just to run experiments. With one squad, I try playing madden ball- deep dropbacks, deep chucks. With the other, I try playing like a normal quarterback, taking a measured dropback, reading the defense, and firing the ball when I hit my plant. The completion percentages are ugly for both, but the statlines are atrocious for the normal qb who, despite throwing what should be short, safe passes, ends up with more incompletes and many more interceptions. Ugh.

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Sean, I think you have trouble with your rbs dropping the ball because you are throwing it too hard. I too had this same problem until I learned that you can't drill it to receivers that are close to you, especially rbs or players without good hands.

I think your biggest problem with NCAA is that your expecting it to play like ESPN, which it certainly isn't. You can throw quick slants and other quick passes, but these passes work best against man to man defenses, just like real life. The linebackers job in a zone is to take away the quick slant from an outside receiver, so of course he's going to slide over and make the play if you try to force a slant into a zone D.

NCAA is a much, MUCH better game than Madden IMO. I think if you give it sometime you'll come to appreciate it.

[wco81]

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Sigma4Life said:
Third, the zone defenses in NCAA are the most realistic of any of the football games mentioned. In both ESPN and Madden there are far too many huge gaps making it too easy to throw quick, short passes.

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NCAA has a lot of virtues but better pass defense is not one of them. Other than the aggressive safeties (which can be exploited), you can rack up way more passing yards in NCAA, esp. by a mobile QB playing behind a suction-blocking dominant OL (way worse than Madden).

Most of the NCAA zones are too similar and all those plays with CBs covering the short zones can be exploited for deep bombs. But guess what, those short zones don't really stop the short passes either because they take poor pursuit angles on a lot of squareouts and drag type of patterns. The result is that you can turn a lot of 4-yard patterns into big RAC plays. Plus those stupid short zone CBs don't stop bootlegs by fast QBs as well as you would expect.

[GHill]

I've been saying all along it's the QB accuracy and not the DBs that really need tweakings.

[seanmac]

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Sigma4Life said:
Some of you guys are wrong in your assessment of NCAA. It is nothing like Madden.

First of all, while Madden's qb's are super accurate, that is FAR from the truth in NCAA. I play with Texas most of the time, and Vince Young constantly misses wide open receivers.

Secondly, the defenders in NCAA most certainly do NOT react to the ball before it is thrown. i agree that this does seem to happen in Madden, expecially on short throws over the middle.

Third, the zone defenses in NCAA are the most realistic of any of the football games mentioned. In both ESPN and Madden there are far too many huge gaps making it too easy to throw quick, short passes.

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I'll respond point by point.

Quarterbacks are less accurate in NCAA. Still, a high percentage of the incompletions come from drops, not from errant throws.

Unfortunately, defenders most certainly do react before the ball is thrown. I've watched replays over and over, and there are many instances where defenders break on the ball before the quarterback has thrown it (which is why you will see things like four defenders guarding a deep post, something that would never happen in reality). This is less of a problem when throwing those deep routes or long drags that the EA games favor, because you have time to wait for the receiver to get wide, wide open. But if you throw at a time when the receiver is open or about to break open but does not have massive separation, you get a defensive overreaction that begins before the ball is released.

Part of the problem may also be that the quarterbacks simply don't release the ball quickly. I've broken down a number of quick slant plays where I've thrown the quick slant against a zone defense where I've tried to make the throw as soon as the receiver breaks in or even before in anticipation of the break, but what happens is that the quarterback takes too long to set up and throw, and when the throw does get off, it's wildly off target. Because NCAA does not incorporate drops set on the timing of the route, the quarterback is rarely in position to throw the ball accurately on any route that would require a three step drop. It's a major failing, particularly when contrasted with ESPN, where you can play the whole game without ever taking over the quarterback's drop and instead throwing when he plants.

I do agree with you about the spacing- NCAA is the best of the bunch in that regard.

[Sigma4Life]

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wco81 said:

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Sigma4Life said:
Third, the zone defenses in NCAA are the most realistic of any of the football games mentioned. In both ESPN and Madden there are far too many huge gaps making it too easy to throw quick, short passes.

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NCAA has a lot of virtues but better pass defense is not one of them. Other than the aggressive safeties (which can be exploited), you can rack up way more passing yards in NCAA, esp. by a mobile QB playing behind a suction-blocking dominant OL (way worse than Madden).

Most of the NCAA zones are too similar and all those plays with CBs covering the short zones can be exploited for deep bombs. But guess what, those short zones don't really stop the short passes either because they take poor pursuit angles on a lot of squareouts and drag type of patterns. The result is that you can turn a lot of 4-yard patterns into big RAC plays. Plus those stupid short zone CBs don't stop bootlegs by fast QBs as well as you would expect.

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Your completely correct about mobile qb's being able to exploit the pass D. Even that's only a problem with cheesers. If you play someone who is trying to play some semblance of real football, then it's not nearly as big a problem.

Your also right about short zones not really stopping the short passes. I think the biggest flaw in NCAA is a lack of plays, not the AI. If they added more plays to specifically take away the 5 - 7 yard pass the D would be much better.

On a side note, real-life zones are designed to give up the short pass. That's why the defense fights so hard to create third and long situations. It's easy to stop an opponent if you can sit back in your zone and dare your opponent to throw it more than 8 or 9 yards down the field.

One thing your fail to realize, NCAA is supposed to be easier to pass the ball. College football in general is more wide open. There's a reason Texas Tech averaged 475 yards per game passing last year. There is a reason that Texas, Oklahoma, USC, Texas Tech, Boise St and Miami (OH) all averaged over 40 pts per game, 35 teams averaged over 30 pts/game, and 61 teams averaged over 27 pts/game last season. It's just the nature of college football. It's high scoring.

Contrast that with the NFL where 1, yes ONE, team averaged 30 pts/game last season. That's a whopping 3% of the league. 30% of all D1 college teams averaged 30pts. The majority of NFL teams (53%) don't even average 20 pts/game. NFL defenses are supposed to be much, MUCH tougher. The problem is that in Madden, the defense is tougher because of cheating AI. NCAA does have some flaws, but overall, it has the most realistic defensive AI of any football game.

One last thing, the flaws in NCAA can easily be avoided in league play with a few well written rules. The same cannot be said for the flaws in the other games.

[Sigma4Life]

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seanmac said:

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Sigma4Life said:
Some of you guys are wrong in your assessment of NCAA. It is nothing like Madden.

First of all, while Madden's qb's are super accurate, that is FAR from the truth in NCAA. I play with Texas most of the time, and Vince Young constantly misses wide open receivers.

Secondly, the defenders in NCAA most certainly do NOT react to the ball before it is thrown. i agree that this does seem to happen in Madden, expecially on short throws over the middle.

Third, the zone defenses in NCAA are the most realistic of any of the football games mentioned. In both ESPN and Madden there are far too many huge gaps making it too easy to throw quick, short passes.

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I'll respond point by point.

Quarterbacks are less accurate in NCAA. Still, a high percentage of the incompletions come from drops, not from errant throws.

Unfortunately, defenders most certainly do react before the ball is thrown. I've watched replays over and over, and there are many instances where defenders break on the ball before the quarterback has thrown it (which is why you will see things like four defenders guarding a deep post, something that would never happen in reality). This is less of a problem when throwing those deep routes or long drags that the EA games favor, because you have time to wait for the receiver to get wide, wide open. But if you throw at a time when the receiver is open or about to break open but does not have massive separation, you get a defensive overreaction that begins before the ball is released.

Part of the problem may also be that the quarterbacks simply don't release the ball quickly. I've broken down a number of quick slant plays where I've thrown the quick slant against a zone defense where I've tried to make the throw as soon as the receiver breaks in or even before in anticipation of the break, but what happens is that the quarterback takes too long to set up and throw, and when the throw does get off, it's wildly off target. Because NCAA does not incorporate drops set on the timing of the route, the quarterback is rarely in position to throw the ball accurately on any route that would require a three step drop. It's a major failing, particularly when contrasted with ESPN, where you can play the whole game without ever taking over the quarterback's drop and instead throwing when he plants.

I do agree with you about the spacing- NCAA is the best of the bunch in that regard.

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You made some very good points. The qbs certainly are too slow in releasing the ball. It's especially obvious when you get sacked after clearly pressing the pass button well before the defender made contact with your qb.

Your right, ESPN does a great job of incorporating a qb's drop based on the play called. Hopefully this is something that EA is aware of and they'll improve on it in this year's games.

[seanmac]

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Sigma4Life said:

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seanmac said:
Yes, you are talking about a fundamental problem with EA football games, both Madden and NCAA. They actually punish you for playing realistically and reward arcade football tactics. I recently repurchased a copy of NCAA after having playing mostly ESPN the last six months, and I have been having a disaster of a time on offense. Why? Because my ESPN skills are useless here. There is no reason to read the defense and throw the quick slant to the hole in the zone, because there is no hole in the zone- the linebacker will zoom over at warp speed to make the play. There is no point in checking down to the running back because the running back is going to drop the ball eight times out of ten, despite having no one within ten yards of him (or better yet, like what just happened, the running back will suddenly and unaccountably turn upfield while a safety rushes in from ten yards away to intercept a pass that was thrown when there was absolutely no one around the runner). Instead, you are rewarded for chucking the ball downfield (and part of that means you are rewarded for dropping back thirty yards to give your receivers time to get downfield). It's absolutely infuriating...and after a few games of it, it sends me racing back to ESPN.

I've been playing games where I take over the offense for both teams, just to run experiments. With one squad, I try playing madden ball- deep dropbacks, deep chucks. With the other, I try playing like a normal quarterback, taking a measured dropback, reading the defense, and firing the ball when I hit my plant. The completion percentages are ugly for both, but the statlines are atrocious for the normal qb who, despite throwing what should be short, safe passes, ends up with more incompletes and many more interceptions. Ugh.

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Sean, I think you have trouble with your rbs dropping the ball because you are throwing it too hard. I too had this same problem until I learned that you can't drill it to receivers that are close to you, especially rbs or players without good hands.

I think your biggest problem with NCAA is that your expecting it to play like ESPN, which it certainly isn't. You can throw quick slants and other quick passes, but these passes work best against man to man defenses, just like real life. The linebackers job in a zone is to take away the quick slant from an outside receiver, so of course he's going to slide over and make the play if you try to force a slant into a zone D.

NCAA is a much, MUCH better game than Madden IMO. I think if you give it sometime you'll come to appreciate it.

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No, the running backs will drop the ball far more often than not regardless of how hard I throw it. It's not a coincidence that EA games have traditionally had a great deal of difficulty guarding the backs out of the flat and that suddenly the problem is fixed now because the backs can't catch anything. It's a lazy way to fix a problem, that's all. I've experimented with different velocities, and no matter how you throw it, the situation is usually the same- there is no defender within ten yards of the running back, and the back drops the ball nevertheless. (I've even had the same ludicrous thing happen twice where I tried to gently throw the ball to the back and a safety came racing from ten yards away to make the interception...you had to see it on replay, it was absurd.)

Don't get me wrong, I have played plenty of NCAA- I just took a hiatus for much of this football season. And I do appreciate it as a game. It's got a lot of qualities. But I'm not sure an accurate passing model is among them. If I try and play a high percentage passing game with NCAA, my numbers invariably end up looking the same: 10 for 24 with two touchdowns and two picks, where most of the yardage came from drags that had a lot of YAC or from throwing the bomb against the safety blitz, and at least eight to ten instances where either an open player drops the ball or the defender makes what I consider to be an unreasonable play on the ball considering where they were positioned when I released.

[CeriousBuc]

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seanmac said:
Yes, you are talking about a fundamental problem with EA football games, both Madden and NCAA. They actually punish you for playing realistically and reward arcade football tactics. I recently repurchased a copy of NCAA after having playing mostly ESPN the last six months, and I have been having a disaster of a time on offense. Why? Because my ESPN skills are useless here. There is no reason to read the defense and throw the quick slant to the hole in the zone, because there is no hole in the zone- the linebacker will zoom over at warp speed to make the play. There is no point in checking down to the running back because the running back is going to drop the ball eight times out of ten, despite having no one within ten yards of him (or better yet, like what just happened, the running back will suddenly and unaccountably turn upfield while a safety rushes in from ten yards away to intercept a pass that was thrown when there was absolutely no one around the runner). Instead, you are rewarded for chucking the ball downfield (and part of that means you are rewarded for dropping back thirty yards to give your receivers time to get downfield). It's absolutely infuriating...and after a few games of it, it sends me racing back to ESPN.

I've been playing games where I take over the offense for both teams, just to run experiments. With one squad, I try playing madden ball- deep dropbacks, deep chucks. With the other, I try playing like a normal quarterback, taking a measured dropback, reading the defense, and firing the ball when I hit my plant. The completion percentages are ugly for both, but the statlines are atrocious for the normal qb who, despite throwing what should be short, safe passes, ends up with more incompletes and many more interceptions. Ugh.

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I read this post yesterday and thought why bother to point out what's "fundamentally" wrong with your observations of NCAA. Especially when it obvious that you have a ESPN bias. Why would I say you have a bias? Who else would compare a Pro football title to a collegiate football title? Its comparing apples to oranges when you consider gameplay.

Point #1.) "Your ESPN skills are useless on NCAA '04."
Did you honestly think they would do you any good? Forget the fact that its made by EA, I've heard of seasoned Madden fans having a tough time getting acclimated to NCAA's style of play. The college game is totally different from the pro game in terms of speed, attributes, atmosphere and play calling. These are things even novice college football fans know. I'm surprised that you though the gameplay would be
identical to what you're use to.

Point #2.) "No holes in the Zones."
Your first mistake is trying to run quick slant and run after catch pass plays in NCAA. The reason being is that most college programs don't run anything near a WCO that you'll find in ESPN or Madden. Young QBs don't have the timing or accuracy necessary to run such complicated offense in most cases. Yes we are just now seeing the beginnings of Pro-style offense being implemented in real life, but the systems are run few and far between. Most programs run either a verticle passing game or they use the run to set up the pass. It may seem that the LB is lightning fast, when in reality its the Qb having a slower release than what you'll find in a Pro title. So yes, you'll have a higher passing percentage throwing the deep pass than the short slant, but it's simulated to be attributed to college QB's abilities.

Point #3.) "The RB has no hands."
Again, passes in the flats to the RB is not the norm in college football. Add to this that most RBs do not come out of college with natural pass catching skills. Of the two top backs in this years draft (Jackson and Jones) neither caught as many passes in college as what they'll be asked to do in St. Louis and Detroit. The majority of the backs in this years draft were not good pass catchers and its a skill that will need to be developed. What team do you play with in NCAA? I play with VT, a team that runs the ball mostly and has the option. Most of my backs have good to great hands very rarely does a back on VT drop a pass. But it does happen.

I think you're forgeting that a very high percentage of college athletes will never make it to the pros. That being said, NCAA has different caliber athletes and the gameplay is very different from what you're used. There is a different feel to the game but that is what seperates its from a pro title.