I'm now convinced...A.I. is broken

[guinness22]

Quote: Originally Posted by ODogg

Plus I think people tend to play alot more conservative (differently) with a lead and thus end up with more 3 and outs, meaning cpu has the ball more and can tend to score more. It's not comeback AI.

You know, I think this is a good point. I don't necessarily believe in "comeback AI", I believe that what ODogg says is accurate. However, I have a suspicion that perhaps there is a ratings boost, or a change in how the CPU plays, ie. more stripped balls etc.

For example, I had one of those games last night. I decided to start a franchise with the Bears because they were rated 70 overall using the 9/16 EA roster update, and I use ninerdynasty's All Madden sliders. I was in week 7 if I recall correctly, playing against the 49ers. Great game, one of the best ever from a "sim football feel" perspective. I am leading 17-3 with about 8 minutes left in the 4th quarter. CPU punts deep into my zone, to about the 5 yard line. I signal fair catch and get my punt returner the heck out of there (or so I thought!), out to about the 15. The CPU gunner comes flying in, jumps in the air and swats the ball 10 yards backward to where my PR is standing surrounded by about 5 other CPU players. The ball, of course, hits my player then is jumped on by the CPU. I actually had to laugh, and filed it away in the "keep your PR more than 10 yards away" file. Of course the CPU scores. So, 17-10 now.

Ensuing drive the CPU shuts me down on first and second down. So, like a twit I pass on third. Quick slant over the middle, ball hits my receiver in the hands, bounces straight sideways to be picked by the CPU's LB from his shoe tops. Needless to say, the CPU drives for the TD to tie it up 17-17.

Ensuing kick off I fumble (of course). CPU recovers, I actually shut his offense down this time and the CPU kicks the FG. 20-17 for the CPU now, with 3 minutes left.

Next drive, I am shut down on first and second down. But I am running out of time as we approach the 2 minute warning. So, I'm thinking "I can't possibly turn it over 4 times in a row, can I?" I throw the third down pass to find out. The answer is "yes, apparently I can!". Pick. I shut the CPU down, he kicks the FG, it's now 23-17 at the 2 min warning.

Last chance. I return the kick to about the 35, and proceed to drive quite effortlessly so I start to think, ok now I'll score a TD for the dramatic 24-23 win. But, all of a sudden the drive stalls at about the CPU's 30. So, it's third and 4 or 5. I throw a quick slant which hits my WR in the hands and falls to the ground. 4th and 5 now. Shotgun 5 WR. One of the slot receivers drags over the middle wide open! Oh baby! Throw the ball......hits the WR in the hands again.............and he drops it! I lose!! :y4:

I don't mind losing, I'm actually getting use to it with the Bears. :y4: And, as I say, I don't believe in a "comeback code". But, 4 turnovers and 2 key drops to go from winning 17-3 to losing 23-17 in the last 8 minutes of the game makes you wonder what the heck just happened? Do combacks happen? Of course. Do turnovers and drops happen? Of course. Does this happen to me all the time in Madden. No. But, what makes me go hmmmmm is the change in "feel" of the game. From a 17-3 sim feeling game to a turnover fest in the last 8 minutes where I can't do anything at all. Does the CPU get a boost? Dunno, maybe. Does the CPU play a different style of game - ie. more strips, more aggressive play calling, etc. Maybe. Whatever the answer is, it sure was a different game the first 3 quarters than it was the last one.

(Sorry for the length of the post).

g22

[Brando70]

guiness, that feels precisely like a Bears loss!

I have seen that kind of stuff happen, just not consistently enough to convince me some bit of programming kicks in.

I do think one disadvantage you face against the CPU is the hurry up. I sense that when the CPU goes to hurry up, they call plays from the whole playbook. You can't do that, you can only use your audibles. That gives the CPU offense a big advantage and I think leads to many late scores.

[Aikman08]

Quote: Originally Posted by BritPitbull

If there is no comeback code explain to me why the best teams score less against me. It's simple, the more you score the more the AI cheats and piles the points up against you. SO against a poor team you might win 45-38 but against a good team (that you don't score as easy on) you might win 17-10. I have yet to see any one post stats of a 28-0 win.

Excellent point. And this results in total stat skewing. Really, many times you end up pulling out the win when these miraculous comebacks happen. But, for me, the worst part is the stats get jacked to all hell, even if you've been shutting them down. Although, even against the good teams, my final scores tend to be higher than a 17-10. Prob. more like a 28-21. I play as the Cowboys (average to below offense, very strong defense). Yet, my offense is ranked #1 in the entire league, and my defense is ranked #21 in the league, undoubtedly from the ridiculous computer offense which refuses to be beat, say 28-7, or 21-0. Also, my record is 6-1, yet every game is the same script. My offense is very efficient, and I almost always shut down the computer offense until about late third quarter. Then, miraculously, back-up QB or not, weak RB or not, suddenly I can't stop the Comp. offense, and my offense starts going three and out almost everytime. Suddenly, my TE drops wide open passes, suddenly the Comp. LBs leap out of nowhere to stuff my RB just short of first downs. And of course, if I try to pass, I'm guaranteed of a crazy deflection turnover. And, of course, I'm resigned to the fact that I must call a fair catch (on the rare occasion the Comp. punts), or else my punt returner will fumble the ball. I really think this stuff is pretty obvious. It does not happen EVERY game. But it does happen way too often to be considered a simulation, in my opinion.

[Aikman08]

Quote: Originally Posted by coyote22

And they usually get the job done, right..? I agree with the original poster of this thread and I honestly believe EA could have taken this cheap *** cheating out of the game a long time ago and I always wondered why they kept it in.. Is this a hardware problem? Is momentum in sports that hard to code? Is this some sort of business policy to keep the 'arcade fan base' happy? All we want is a sports SIM not an arcade game that keeps the scores close, not a 'challenge' in the last minutes of the game. NO. We want realism. I for one would be more than happy to pay double for a game that doesnt have this scripted AI play implemented. Its all the same garbage. NHL, Madden, FIFA.. Blah. /End Rant

Well said, Coyote. They DON'T usually get the job done, and they certainly DON'T rack up close to 400 yards of offense in one half. But, if this is how the video game played, EA would prob. lose much of it's crowd who want fireworks, big plays, cool end zone dances, etc (way too frequently). I would also pay double for a true simulation. You know, there are NFL games where teams lose 24-10 or 17-0, and have virtually no offense. Games like that Monday Night fiasco, Tennessee at Green Bay, are the exception, not the rule. I thought I was watching a game during my franchise on Madden.

[Aikman08]

Quote: Originally Posted by stench96

O.K.,this debate has been raging for years,here's my 2 cents worth- It's not about winning or losing,it's about keeping it real. If I line my 91 rated D.E. up against a 57 rated R.T. Should he get max pressure and be able to get past him. If the cpu has a L.T. at 5th wide reciever[yes this happened,the Rams had 3 w.r.'s out injured]should he be able to make 3 catches downfield,one on 3rd down and 2 on 4th? Should a 64 rated rookie w.r. make 5 catches in a row,no drops,and score a game winning T.D. in the last 2 mins? Why do I have to fumble a punt return after a couple of 3 and outs on the cpu,nearly every game,I ended up with 9 punt fumbles last season. Should a back up Q.B.,with 20 overall points less than the starter,come into the game and lite me up? Why would the Rams only use Faulk 9 times to run the ball,with 3 of their starting w.r.'s out,and instead have Bulger throw to F.B.'s and Tackles in 5 reciever sets?I was only ever in front by 10 points. Does Trent Dilfer really have the agility of Vick when he's in the pocket? I could go on,but all these things seem to happen when the cpu's behind,the o-line becomes a brick wall-regardless of who you line up against,the w.r.'s all become Torry Holt,the Q.B.'s become Elway,and the T.E.'s Gonzales. "The momentums changing"you'll hear Al say,but why?What has happened that would reverse my players[or the cpu's] form so much?The cpu stops me at the goal-line and I kick a field goal,I'm now up by 21 points,there's 4 mins to go,why should my D self destruct????The games in the bag,I've been on top of the offense all day,but because I didn't score a T.D. on my last drive my whole team falls apart???? I played soccer semi-pro for 15 years,and when your down by 3 goals with 5 minutes to go,nothing apart from a huge line of cocaine is gunna get your head up,regardless of who's on your team. I'm playing the Browns,I'm up 35-3,Thomlinson is having a ball,3 mins to go and Al says that they have to score quickly now????Why,the game's over!!!So I put my controller down and watch as Holcomb[Garcia's injured in the 1st] goes balistic and racks up 160 + yards in 2 mins-there goes my passing stats for the game. I watched with a wry smile yesterday as Green Bay bought in their rookie Q.B. to replace Fauvre late in the 4th,why,because the game was over,47-21!!!But if that was Madden,Fauvre would have gone into 2min drill mode,and soured what would have been a great victory. I think that this is the greatest dissopointment with Madden,it doesn't know when to give up and it doesn't play to the depth charts.Sure there are stand out rookies each season,or players who play above their ratings,but why is it every team I play against???? I quote the great John Madden from a Monday Nite game a while ago-"Well they've lost this one,so they're gunna bring in the back-ups for a few snaps,the last thing they wanna do is have one of their starters injured when theyve got no chance of coming back."If only E.A. practised what he preached,cheers Stench

Another excellent post I agree with. Sorry for the consecutive posts, I just strongly agree with a lot of what you guys are saying.

[mercalnd]

Reading this debate over the past few days, I've noticde a trend: People who get the dreaded comeback AI say it happens when they get a big lead. Here's my take: You know how when your offense is constantly getting 3 and out's how your defense tires out because they never get more than a minute or so's rest... Well this can also happen if your offense scores within a minute or two every time you have the ball, especially if your opponent can move up the field a bit before you force them to punt. Another thing is that if you've been playing a certain style for three quarters on defense and it has worked well, you can't keep calling the same plays and expect it to keep working. This happens in real games as well. If your cover 2 is so effective that you just keep going to it, your opponent will adjust and you will get burned.

[coyote22]

Quote: Originally Posted by spectralfan

This happens in real games as well. If your cover 2 is so effective that you just keep going to it, your opponent will adjust and you will get burned.

I agree and I don't agree. If AI would adjust to your game that would be awesome. In some situations it may seem that way. Unfortunately, I don't think AI programming is at a stage yet to be able to improvise on the plays youre calling. It feels much more like Madden AI uses a scripted way of handling situations.

It might be we are covering some ground though.

-I THINK Madden 2004 had a slightly stronger comeback code than 2005 does. Guys, please back me up on this if you have the same feeling. It IS still there, but might be more hidden.. Maybe claims made beforehand that it was turned down are actually true. If this is the case, that would be a good development. Still not enough though.

-I dont have NBA Live 2005 but it seems that game also had comeback logic turned down. (Not taken out yet), or at least there are ways to beat it.
I got this from the Live forum:

Quote: Originally Posted by ludacris06

If you want to beat the CPU's catch up AI, you have to control the clock and make defensive assignments late in the game.

That sounds a bit more promising. Maybe Madden 2005 also has certain ways of beating it, but some guys know how to do it and others don't. Looking at Franchise reports I DO find scores ranging from blowouts (35-10, 41-11) to close ones (38-35, 37-31).

Anyway, the verdict is still out. But this thread sure is an interesting one, keep it going!

[SteelerForLife]

My $0.02...

I do believe there is comeback code built into the game, in the sense that the CPU offense does get at least an awareness boost when down late in the game. It's been in Madden for years and EA does it to keep games exciting for the mass audience.

What I don't understand is why EA simply can't cater to the "hardcore" crowd by simply including a setting (whether its a difficulty setting or a arcade/normal/ultra-realistic option) where more NFL-like stats and gameplay results can be achieved. On "ultra-realistic", injuries (both minor and major, long-term ones) would happen at the NFL rate, QBs would throw more errant passes, kickers would be a little less accurate, the salary cap in franchise mode would be tighter, etc. Normal mode would be the current level of play in Madden, and arcade is self-explanatory. This wasy, you're satisfying your entire spectrum of customers as much as possible, without alienating any one group. We all know this can be done even with the current Madden engine (heck, just making the sliders more effective would accomplish most of the gameplay fixing). So, what's the problem?