Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

[clutch0ne]

Ok lets admit it. The last two seasons of Madden have absolutely sucked based on player progression. Last year they didn't progress at all. Meanwhile this year it seems that the progressions are much more random. Heck I had a bench player gain 8 OVR points and he didn't even play a snap!

IMO, this is the most important part of franchise. Drafting a player and having him progress based on his numbers. I drafted a 77OVR rookie WR, and he broke the single season TD record, had 100+ receptions and 1500+ yards and didn't progress at all!! What kind of BS is that?
Madden 06 was absolutely PERFECT in progression in that they progressed many times during the season based on their stats. Please..can we please fix this? Or are we going to get yet another broken unplayable progression system?

[g2thecore]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I agree. There's a lot of issues that need to be addressed in Franchise Mode, but progression is definitely one of the main ones.

[Glorious Arc]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

Ok lets admit it. The last two seasons of Madden have absolutely sucked based on player progression. Last year they didn't progress at all. Meanwhile this year it seems that the progressions are much more random. Heck I had a bench player gain 8 OVR points and he didn't even play a snap!

IMO, this is the most important part of franchise. Drafting a player and having him progress based on his numbers. I drafted a 77OVR rookie WR, and he broke the single season TD record, had 100+ receptions and 1500+ yards and didn't progress at all!! What kind of BS is that?
Madden 06 was absolutely PERFECT in progression in that they progressed many times during the season based on their stats. Please..can we please fix this? Or are we going to get yet another broken unplayable progression system?

Im not gonna be to harsh with you because you are new(4 total posts) but if you had read some of Ian's first posts you would have the answer to your question. He states that he wants to see big changes in stats during the season due to performance both up and down.


http://www.operationsports.com/forum...y-new-era.html

theres his blog its the first post in the 7th paragraph you will find what you seek....please read the forum a little bit before going on a rant.

[Spartan_1]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I guess there are a few ways of looking at this and I am on the side that doesn't agree that a player has to play on Sundays to improve.

I definitely think playing is going to help with experience but I think a player will reach his max potential if he has a bad game or a good game. A real person doesn't suddenly become a better player just because they catch a td pass.

Also in a video game they had the stats to be able to perform the way they do from the start. I just think it would be a never ending cycle if you have performance determine an increase or decrease in stats. Example if you take any stat on a 1-100 scale and start at 50. If this stat of 50 allowed a RB to have a 150 yard game so he gets an improvement to 60 for the next game, then if the 50 stat allowed a 150 yard game, the 60 stat should allow for a 200 yard game and then of course a stat increase. It just goes up and up.

I also think that player progression and potential are more position dependent. Most NFL rookie running backs come in and are already near their potential. They don't need to adjust as much. Like Adrian Peterson and Cadillac Williams, Barry Sanders ran for a td on his 2nd nfl carry. Do you think he would have been less of a player if he had gotten tackled for a loss?

QBs like Carson Palmer and Steve Young, started out on the sidelines. Learning.

I know a lot of people like having players ONLY progress if they get playing time so I know i am probably in the minority. I just have an opinion that if you have a 70 ovr player that outperforms a 90 rated player, this is a game logic issue not a lets make the 70 ovr player suddenly have 90 ovr stats.

Now, if the game itself upgrades a low level player because of excellent game play AND the game was designed to simulate " Wow, we underestimated this player, this guy is better than we thought" that is a different story. Kind of like, we drafted a late round gem that nobody knew about type of thing.

One last thing, I remember an interview with, IIRC, Steve Mariuci discussing if he should let some of his younger players play so we could see their potential at the end of a losing season. He went into a long answer about how fans and media are always make comments like that, but in reality the coaches have a pretty good idea how a player can perform just from the weekly practices and they don't need to put a player in to see just so they can " see what we got ". This one is embedded into every fans head though from the announcers every week on tv.

[kcarr]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I guess there are a few ways of looking at this and I am on the side that doesn't agree that a player has to play on Sundays to improve.

I definitely think playing is going to help with experience but I think a player will reach his max potential if he has a bad game or a good game. A real person doesn't suddenly become a better player just because they catch a td pass.

Also in a video game they had the stats to be able to perform the way they do from the start. I just think it would be a never ending cycle if you have performance determine an increase or decrease in stats. Example if you take any stat on a 1-100 scale and start at 50. If this stat of 50 allowed a RB to have a 150 yard game so he gets an improvement to 60 for the next game, then if the 50 stat allowed a 150 yard game, the 60 stat should allow for a 200 yard game and then of course a stat increase. It just goes up and up.

I also think that player progression and potential are more position dependent. Most NFL rookie running backs come in and are already near their potential. They don't need to adjust as much. Like Adrian Peterson and Cadillac Williams, Barry Sanders ran for a td on his 2nd nfl carry. Do you think he would have been less of a player if he had gotten tackled for a loss?

QBs like Carson Palmer and Steve Young, started out on the sidelines. Learning.

I know a lot of people like having players ONLY progress if they get playing time so I know i am probably in the minority. I just have an opinion that if you have a 70 ovr player that outperforms a 90 rated player, this is a game logic issue not a lets make the 70 ovr player suddenly have 90 ovr stats.

Now, if the game itself upgrades a low level player because of excellent game play AND the game was designed to simulate " Wow, we underestimated this player, this guy is better than we thought" that is a different story. Kind of like, we drafted a late round gem that nobody knew about type of thing.

One last thing, I remember an interview with, IIRC, Steve Mariuci discussing if he should let some of his younger players play so we could see their potential at the end of a losing season. He went into a long answer about how fans and media are always make comments like that, but in reality the coaches have a pretty good idea how a player can perform just from the weekly practices and they don't need to put a player in to see just so they can " see what we got ". This one is embedded into every fans head though from the announcers every week on tv.

I am going to agree that progression shouldn't be solely linked to on field performance. Actually I dont see how most ratings improvement should really be linked to performance. There are some that I could understand but most of those aren't even in the game.

Awareness should be mostly based off of performance as should things like composure, consistency, confidence, leadership, etc. These are things that having game experience can really help with because they determine how well you can carry your abilities over to gametime situations and the more comfortable you are in the game the better you will be at these things.

Actual skills though? Can someone please explain to me how having a 1200 yard rushing season would make a person faster. Tell me how catching 100 passes in game can make a person better at catching the ball. How throwing for 4000 yards can increase a persons throwing accuracy.

And don't tell me it is adjusting the ratings to put them equal to their performance, if they put up those numbers with their current ratings then those ratings line up to those stats in that given situation.

Also don't tell me that the repetition from catching 100 passes throughout the season or throwing all those passes or whatever will cause improvement. Those repetitions are much less than what these players go through in practice.

Practice is the key to improving all these skills and abilities and backups practice to. It isn't like the coach is going to tell a player "you aren't starting this week, so rather than practice and work out just go home drink beer and watch TV" backups practice to and therefore should develop.

[kcarr]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

IMO, this is the most important part of franchise. Drafting a player and having him progress based on his numbers. I drafted a 77OVR rookie WR, and he broke the single season TD record, had 100+ receptions and 1500+ yards and didn't progress at all!! What kind of BS is that?
Madden 06 was absolutely PERFECT in progression in that they progressed many times during the season based on their stats. Please..can we please fix this? Or are we going to get yet another broken unplayable progression system?

explain to me how putting up these numbers improves the player's skills. How often does a player coming off of a record breaking season come back and play even better the next year? Has this ever even happened?

Conversely how often does a player come off a record breaking season to put up numbers the next season more in line with what they normally put up? much more likely.

[Chargersa7x]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I think the question should be how can a 77 overall receiver be able to put up record breaking numbers?

[Outkizast]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I think the question should be how can a 77 overall receiver be able to put up record breaking numbers?

well put.

[kcarr]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I think the question should be how can a 77 overall receiver be able to put up record breaking numbers?

I agree that a 77 should never but breaking records but they can have good seasons beyond their ratings. It is my opinion that this shouldn't affect their ratings and that was basically what I was getting at in my post.

[RaiderKtulu]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

I think progression should have a very large random factor to it. Both positive and negative. Some players are consistently "good" for their whole career without ever really having a "great" season, other players have hot and cold flashes. You really never know when a player is going to have a breakout season, or if they're going to have a bad year.

For example, Rich Gannon was basically a career backup who never even played a full season for his first 11 years, never even had more than 2500 yards passing in a season... then went to Oakland and put up 3800, 3400, 3800 and 4600 yards in 4 consecutive years. (and then blew a superbowl and sucked for 2 more seasons before retiring) In the world of Madden, isn't that about the equivalent of a guy sitting around a 75OVR for a few years, then suddenly jumping to a 90 for what appears to be no reason? Progression based purely on on-the-field play is a horrible way to try to represent reality.

[marktg30]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

If I understand right, it sounds like quite a few of you don't want your players to progress at all. If you do want them to progress, you want it to be due to some type of arbitrary "Potential Rating".

Lets say your favorite player is Chicago's Matt Forte who came into Madden 09 rated at 80.

Then, through your skills in Madden you end up having Forte run for over 1200 yards and 8 TDs. Wouldn't you like to think that he has shown quite a bit of growth? (say, an 87 OVR Rating?)

If you download updated rosters I have to ask; If those aren't based on performance, what are they based on?

Progression needs to be performance based. For the people that don't want their Madden skills to determine a player's progression, they should have an option or a setting that sets progression based on potential. That way they can sit their #1 QB out for 3 seasons and watch him progress... how much fun is that?!

[FadeEmAll]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

Yeah I don't understand what some of you guys problems are. In my opinion people who don't play shouldn't progress much past 80 then whey they hit the field and start killing then they can improve more. And progression works both ways, if a 77 WR puts up record breaking numbers then yeah he should increase to 87 or so, but if his next season is trash then he will go back down. How the hell do you think they make rating in the first place. You think if Antonio Bryant put up record breaking numbers this year, they wont come back on the next Madden and make him 90+ OVR, of coruse they would!!!! How does catching 100 balls make you better? It doesnt it just shows that you were better than people thought, which is why your ratings increase, and if it ends up being a fluke season then you go back down. Good job for pointing it out OP.

p.s. don't worry about the haters, especially the ones tellign you to read the forums before posting, sometimes people dont feel like wading through 100+posts to find something. Just try to use advanced google search when you can homey.

[jfsolo]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

With Josh and Donny on the job, I'm sure that I will be satisfied with whatever system they end up using.

I doubt that it will be a pure stat based progression system though. One of the main problems with using stats for progression in a video game is that the flaws in the gameplay mechanics/A.I. always allow Users to basically produces whatever numbers they want, with whatever player they want, regardless of ratings.

Ironically, this makes progression largely irrelevant because because the User can produce the same stats for a 75 rated player that they can for a 95 rated player.

Progression does need to be fixed, but if fundamental flaws in the gameplay and A.I. aren't fixed as well, then it will essential be a cosmetic improvement.

[kcarr]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

If I understand right, it sounds like quite a few of you don't want your players to progress at all. If you do want them to progress, you want it to be due to some type of arbitrary "Potential Rating".

Lets say your favorite player is Chicago's Matt Forte who came into Madden 09 rated at 80.

Then, through your skills in Madden you end up having Forte run for over 1200 yards and 8 TDs. Wouldn't you like to think that he has shown quite a bit of growth? (say, an 87 OVR Rating?)

If you download updated rosters I have to ask; If those aren't based on performance, what are they based on?

Progression needs to be performance based. For the people that don't want their Madden skills to determine a player's progression, they should have an option or a setting that sets progression based on potential. That way they can sit their #1 QB out for 3 seasons and watch him progress... how much fun is that?!

First off, yes potential should have something to do with progression. For further thoughts from me on progression check out the weekly preparation thread. It goes pretty in depth in how I feel progression should occur.

As for whether it should be linked to performance, if you have an 80 ovr player rush for 1200 yards and 8 TDs then with an 87 you should be able to hit even greater numbers and gain even greater progression.

This leads to 2 major problems in my opinion. First, this way in a franchise it doesn't matter who you draft or how you run your team, this "stick skill based" progression will pretty much guarantee that my team could always have the best talent within a few years and maintain that for as long as the dynasty goes basically taking any challenge out of franchise mode and making franchise success based as much on stick skills as single game success and taking away any need for intelligent team management and smart drafting.

Secondly, it makes no sense that a player having a breakout season should lead to them improving. Lets look at some examples, after LT had his record breaking season how much better was he the next year? His numbers dropped back down to what they had been in previous years.

After LJ got the full time starting job how much better was he the next year? He showed a very strong drop from the previous season and then got injured. He then came back this year and wasn't nearly what he had been.

Peyton Manning, after his record breaking season he came back and in some ways had one of his worst seasons statistically and then returned to normal.

Derek Anderson, after a breakout season last year how much better was he this year? Oh yeah, he ended up getting benched due to poor performance.

Braylon Endwards, also broke out last year and how much better was he this year than last? 25 less catches for 400 less yards and 13 fewer touchdowns.

I could go on but I think that is enough of that for now.

Also, I have said that there are some things that need to improve based on performance, things for which improment based on performance makes since.

As for the roster updates, that is not progression of the players but rather adjustment to try to make them play more to the player that they represent adjusted to his on field performance.

[kcarr]

Re: Is the most important part of Franchise fixed? PROGRESSION!

Yeah I don't understand what some of you guys problems are. In my opinion people who don't play shouldn't progress much past 80 then whey they hit the field and start killing then they can improve more. And progression works both ways, if a 77 WR puts up record breaking numbers then yeah he should increase to 87 or so, but if his next season is trash then he will go back down. How the hell do you think they make rating in the first place. You think if Antonio Bryant put up record breaking numbers this year, they wont come back on the next Madden and make him 90+ OVR, of coruse they would!!!! How does catching 100 balls make you better? It doesnt it just shows that you were better than people thought, which is why your ratings increase, and if it ends up being a fluke season then you go back down. Good job for pointing it out OP.

p.s. don't worry about the haters, especially the ones tellign you to read the forums before posting, sometimes people dont feel like wading through 100+posts to find something. Just try to use advanced google search when you can homey.

Yes, if Antonio puts up record breaking numbers in real life his rating in madden the next year will improve. The question here is do you really think that is because the people at EA think he will improve greatly after putting up those numbers, or due to the people at EA basically admitting that they got the numbers wrong or missed some previous progression that led to those great numbers?