Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

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  • Ian_Cummings
    MVP
    • May 2008
    • 1919

    #1

    Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

    This might be a long one, so bear with me...


    After all the worry over the pass rush (and the heat the NCAA 09 took last year as well as Madden for the "robo-qb"), it's obviously been at the top of my list all year to make sure it was effective. Typically we use QA as our gauge on how effective things are, and throughout the year they have been providing reports, stats, etc that show how much pressure they are getting and stuff like that. The pocket never quite felt "hectic" to me (as many of you have mentioned) but it was always pretty damn close. So after actually watching the whole thing again (rather than playing it), and reading this post from LBz...

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Name="TOC Heading"/> </w:LatentStyles> </xml><![endif]--><style> <!-- /* Font Definitions */ @font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-alt:Cambria; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:roman; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1107304683 0 0 159 0;} @font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-alt:"Arial Rounded MT Bold"; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:swiss; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-1610611985 1073750139 0 0 159 0;} /* Style Definitions */ p.MsoNormal, li.MsoNormal, div.MsoNormal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0in; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family:"Times New Roman";} .MsoChpDefault {mso-style-type:export-only; mso-default-props:yes; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif"; mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri; mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri; mso-bidi-font-family:Calibri;} .MsoPapDefault {mso-style-type:export-only;} @page Section1 {size:8.5in 11.0in; margin:1.0in 1.0in 1.0in 1.0in; mso-header-margin:.5in; mso-footer-margin:.5in; mso-paper-source:0;} div.Section1 {page:Section1;} --> </style><!--[if gte mso 10]> <style> /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-priority:99; mso-style-qformat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:11.0pt; font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";} </style> <![endif]--> “But pass rush. Front four pressure of both teams showed nothing. KVB gave us the only front 4 pressure of the first half on a half line jet stunt (even though it was not run correctly, I'll take it) at the 4:17 mark of video 3. I don't even know who Terrell Suggs, or Jevon Kearse are? And barring that one play KVB was absent as well. No pressures/hurries by the front 4. QB's chillin in the pocket. Suggs is completely absent in the first half. No pressures, swallowed up by the run ect., Ngata and Pryce did some good against the run. Not against the pass.”<o></o>
    ...I figured the best I could do would be to actually snoop around the code and formulas with one of the gameplay guys and see if we saw anything weird. Well...after about 30 minutes of stepping through code and breakpoints, I found a wonderful little gem:
    weaponcurve.JPG

    "Ian, what is that strange looking graph?" you may ask...

    Well my friends, you are feasting your eyes on a "WEAPON CURVE".

    "Ian, what is a weapon curve?"

    Firstly, when I worked on the gameplay team for the 08 products, we implemented what we thought was some really neat tech that allowed us to really fine tune the game - and that is a "ratings curve". Since Madden's inception, every single formula that has existed in the game to determine success or failure has been linear. So to keep it simple, let's say a guy with 100 catch rating catches the ball 100% of the time, and a guy with a 0 catch rating catches 0% of the time. With a "linear" formula, that means a 40 rating = 40%, 75 rating = 75%, etc.

    The "curve" was added to allow us to send in a rating and grab a different result based on how we wanted to tune each specific area. It meant that once we were happy with the ratings of the players, we could still tune the game accordingly without having to go re-rate everyone. So let's say on the catching example, we wanted a 40 rated guy to catch 75% of the time and scale up from there, we could make a graph like this:
    catchcurve.JPG

    Over the years, as the ratings started to become closer and closer together (and not use the whole scale), we also used the ratings curves to separate out players in gameplay. NCAA fans may remember the oft-discussed "speed curve", which was in essence a way to make a 99 guy drastically different from a 97 guy, whereas if a linear scale had been used before he wouldn't really have been noticeably different.

    The above examples don't really look like "curves"...but we got the name because we could build curves on how we wanted players to perform. Here's an example curve that allows us to make a flat line for the common players and then a drastic increase from the the 70-100 ratings.
    curve2.JPG




    Hopefully I did a good job explaining what the ratings curves are, and what they are used for. Enter Madden NFL 08, and "Weapons". The weapon feature was a huge hook for the team that year, so everyone really wanted to make sure that the weapons stood out differently from everyone else. Since it would have seemed weird to just have the weapons be 98 and above and everyone else be sub-90, the curves were used to make those guys more powerful. It meant that the curve would drop SUBSTANTIALLY at the number that was the rating cutoff for the specific rating. For example, let's say you were a 98 in Finesse Moves...this curve made sure that you acted like a 98. But if you were a 90, this curve dropped you down to perform like an 81 rated guy would. By using these curves, all of the players were still able to be rated in the high 80's and 90's, but anyone with a "weapon" tag was actually a good 10% better than someone that may have been one rating point lower than him (since he wasn't marked as a weapon). Here's what I mean:
    bigdropoff.JPG

    It was tough for me to understand at first, but imagine I am playing war, but in order to use my card, I have to handicap myself with the dealer. To check to see if I should win against my opponent, I hand in an Ace to the dealer, and he gives me back an Ace to play. Now imagine I hand him a King...he gives me back a 10 to play. That's kinda how the 'weapon curve' works...except I'm passing in a 96 finesse move rating and getting an 88 in return.

    Well, you may have already guessed how this story ends.

    The curves for the weapon guys were still being used in the calculations for the pass rush successes (even though weapons have been removed). As you all know, Donny stretched the ratings out in a big way, which is in essence doing what these ratings curves used to do...make sure the elite guys are well ahead of the rest of the pack. With these curves still in place, it means the effectiveness of the pass rushers was being reduced on top of their already lowered ratings. I think there are only like one or two LE's in the league that are over 90 finesse moves, yet anyone that was under 94 was effectively getting 10% or so shaved off that rating when the calculations were made going up against an offensive lineman.


    The gameplay guys and myself have flattened everything out in the curve and will be testing the hell out of it over the next few days. I am confident this will help the pass rush quite substantially without being too risky of a change (meaning the good guys will just get better...it's not a global change where all of a sudden the pocket will be collapsing all the time).


    I said this quite a few times last year, and I'm not trying to be cheesy or anything, but this is really just f***ing awesome. Being able to openly communicate with you guys - the folks that are extremely passionate and knowledgable like LBz and Adembroski and countless others - it's just an amazing thing. Being on the other side of this for so long where we'd work as hard as we could and just get ripped apart in August every year, it is such a great feeling to be able to find issues and make changes STRICTLY because of the passion and helpfulness that you guys provide.

    Next up, run styles and defenders cheating inside too much on outside runs. I don't think fixing those will be this easy...but we'll do our best

  • Von Dozier
    MVP
    • Apr 2006
    • 2196

    #2
    Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

    Very nice.

    Quite refreshing to see someone putting their heart and soul into a game like this. It improves more and more every day.

    Comment

    • NoTiCe_O
      Pro
      • May 2009
      • 969

      #3
      Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

      Thanks Ian, you guys are always coming through alot this year

      Reading Now
      Twitter - @OtistheOriginal

      Comment

      • T9R
        Rookie
        • Jul 2008
        • 179

        #4
        Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

        Wow!

        Comment

        • sportzbro
          MVP
          • May 2008
          • 3892

          #5
          Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

          you continue to push the bar when it comes to interacting with the community compared to other well known sports titles. i continue to dream about a day when they show this type of dedication.

          crazy information btw.. and the titans vid looked pretty awesome.
          Last edited by sportzbro; 06-12-2009, 10:18 PM.

          Comment

          • Paytonsplace
            Rookie
            • Aug 2002
            • 230

            #6
            Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

            Great Job Ian. Here is a wonderful example of taking input from the community and correcting the performance curve to yield (hopefully) a better rush. Great work on a Friday night!!

            Now about those easy Field Goals..........

            Comment

            • Purple28Pedestrian
              Rookie
              • Jun 2009
              • 327

              #7
              Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

              damn Ian, well worth the read, good to hear that this should help sort the pass rush out. Thanks for being so candid, let us know how it works.

              Comment

              • Jackdog
                Wolverine Soldier
                • Aug 2002
                • 7719

                #8
                Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                Originally posted by BORN4CORN
                you continue to put the NCAA to shame. i continue to dream about a day when they show this type of dedication.

                crazy information btw.. and the titans vid looked pretty awesome.
                Please leave NCAA out of this. Stick to Madden talk please.
                NFL:Packers
                MLB:Reds/Tigers
                NHL:Red Wings
                NCAA:Michigan Wolverines.
                F-1: Ferrari.

                It's been a while OS. Hope all are doing well!

                Comment

                • No_Balla
                  Rookie
                  • Aug 2008
                  • 25

                  #9
                  Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                  Ian, are you saying that the weapons bug only affected the pass rushers and no one else, ie offensive linemen were not also being dropped because of this weapon bug.

                  Comment

                  • Bears_16_and_0
                    Banned
                    • May 2003
                    • 1328

                    #10
                    Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                    wow, really interesting. awesome that our little ***** community actually helped out in a big way lol

                    Comment

                    • TheCreep
                      Banned
                      • Nov 2008
                      • 1792

                      #11
                      Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                      Appreciate the inside look at things. Wouldn't it be great if you guys went in and expanded the RBs quadriceps? Had to throw that one out there, lol.

                      Comment

                      • fierce1289
                        Rookie
                        • Apr 2009
                        • 1

                        #12
                        Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                        First Post (Long time looker, never posting) and I have to say terrific job! I really appreciate the community interaction and I think it has made this game much better due to it, especially from the super dedicated people here.

                        Ian it really shows your dedication to finding and solving the past problems of this game!

                        Solid work, like the addition of pictures for reference too haha

                        Comment

                        • TeeDogg
                          MVP
                          • Jul 2002
                          • 2283

                          #13
                          Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                          Originally posted by Ian_Cummings_EA
                          this is really just f***ing awesome. Being able to openly communicate with you guys - the folks that are extremely passionate and knowledgable like LBz and Adembroski and countless others - it's just an amazing thing. Being on the other side of this for so long where we'd work as hard as we could and just get ripped apart in August every year, it is such a great feeling to be able to find issues and make changes STRICTLY because of the passion and helpfulness that you guys provide.

                          you have turned madden from a non purchase every year into a sure purchase for me. by your efforts here and actualy using the feed back. great work Ian, keep it up. I think i speak for a alot of people by saying you almost single handedly saved madden for a ton of old school sports gamers like myself. i look forward to seeing what the future holds for gang tackles and branching animations.

                          Comment

                          • bcruise
                            Hall Of Fame
                            • Mar 2004
                            • 23274

                            #14
                            Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                            Simply incredible. You guys really don't ever get enough credit for all the dedication that goes into making this game.

                            A question, if I may - Was this weapon curve global, across all ratings, or was it only for the pass rushing? That is, would leveling it out as you did affect all positions in a similar manner? That could certainly dramatically alter a number of things (probably for the better) if that's the case.

                            Comment

                            • Tyrant8RDFL
                              MVP
                              • Feb 2004
                              • 3563

                              #15
                              Re: Just stumbled across a great find (re: pass rush)

                              This was a nice brake down and very nice of you to explain it to us.

                              I guess where some think criticizing the game in a negative way offends you. It actually makes you more determined to get things right.
                              You must be a Aries. A fighter till the end .

                              Now being that you have given us this brake down on the system you use to separate the top players from the not so top players. Is it worth having this system determine the outcome or success for those players?

                              I never recall the pass rush or the play of elite players being a issue on the last gen engine. Would it or could it be possible to just go the route you went on the last gen system with line play? , and get rid of this system all together?
                              Simply *Magic* Just click the link and Watch :)
                              http://www.operationsports.com/forum...post2043715147

                              Comment

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