What is the consensus on the 3-4?

[MikeGiani]

For those with the game is it finally effective this year? Or is it once again useless because the NT won't pick up 2 blockers?

[slthree]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

For those with the game is it finally effective this year? Or is it once again useless because the NT won't pick up 2 blockers?

I only played 1 game with a 3-4 defensive team, the Ravens.

It didn't seem like the NT drew a double team much, if at all.

[Brandwin]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

I haven't really noticed the DT drawing double teams.

3-4 plays like it did in the past, to me.

[emacfenian]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

I wish they'd get this right. They should focus a lot on defense in 2011 (if not for a patch) because the best defenses in the league are running a 3-4, yet from what I've read, it seems pretty tough in the game. I'll have to experience it for myself to know for sure though.

[joejccva71]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

Trust me...double-teaming happens. I use the Skins and against some teams regardless if i use 4-3 or 3-4 Haynesworth gets double teamed and sometimes gets triple teamed.

[mmorg]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

I have seen double teams on running plays and on passing plays the NT will engage the center while a Guard will peel behind the center and pick up the NT once he breaks the block. Not a true double team on the passing plays but better than the past.

[Poetique]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

I have seen double teams on running plays and on passing plays the NT will engage the center while a Guard will peel behind the center and pick up the NT once he breaks the block. Not a true double team on the passing plays but better than the past.

That's the main thing I'm hearing as well. But that still leaves the scheme basically broken for alot of teams.

My team for example, the steelers, make exotic use of the 3-4 scheme with zone blitzes. But in Madden it's not that threatening because if the NT isn't drawing the double team on the pass, then I'd have to blitz at least 2 LBs to get any sort of pressure on the QB.

It's not a problem for the 4-3 in Madden because the pressure point is accurate. In the 4-3 pressure is created by the DEs, and with one of the DEs pretty much guaranteed to only have a single blocker, it works fine. Bring extra pressure from a backer in 4-3 and you're just about guaranteed to get pressure from somewhere because 5 players are basically going after the QB.

With the 3-4 if the NT doesn't get double teamed my 3 lineman are occupied, blitzing one LB is basically pointless, and even with 2 you're still not guaranteed to get pressure, but it's the bare minimum to have a chance at it.

[SA1NT401]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

unfortunately...the 3-4 and 4-3 behave exactly the same...sadly.

[DerkontheOS]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

unfortunately...the 3-4 and 4-3 behave exactly the same...sadly.

Yes it is sad....I wish they would patch this, but I don't see them doing it anytime soon.

[Poetique]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

Yes it is sad....I wish they would patch this, but I don't see them doing it anytime soon.

What's really sad is there is next to nothing to do. The Pro-Tak system is the EXACT way to handle double teams. The one and only difference is that the objective is to block the player, not tackle them.

If they took the exact logic used by Pro-Tak and altered the outcomes to exclude actually tackling the player and applied it to NTs, BAM, we have double teaming.

And don't anyone try to come in and say it's not that simple, because it is. I could code it for them if I had their tools.

If they wanted to apply extra logic deciding who does and doesn't get double teamed (or possibly triple teamed), then they could use something like

If (NT) strength equal to (x) or greater, then set doubleteamvariable=yes, else set doubleteamvariable=no.

we can even have logic for triple teaming and base it off of whatever variable of strength AND...

Example:

If (NT) strength AND block shedding + power move equal to (x) or greater, then set tripleteamvariable=yes, else set tripleteamvariable=no

Triple teaming is about as much as would be necessary, and there are a whole other plethora of simple complexities that could be added to make the 3-4 scheme realistic (I've got ideas for days in my head as to how to properly implement the system).

That also needs to be extended to super force DEs as well (Richard Seymour, for example, often requires double teaming).

No work to be done there either, the same logic applying to NTs could be applied to DEs, the only difference is that DEs generally never get triple teamed, so that variable could be excluded.

[DerkontheOS]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

What's really sad is there is next to nothing to do. The Pro-Tak system is the EXACT way to handle double teams. The one and only difference is that the objective is to block the player, not tackle them.

Yea, I really wish developers would read these forums. Then, they could see that the 3-4 is completely different than the 4-3 and teams that run the 3-4 scout different than the 4-3 teams. However this thread could have 1500 posts and it still would not get patched...kind of like the NCAA progression, but this is all we can do as consumers.

[CKW11]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

Yes it is sad....I wish they would patch this, but I don't see them doing it anytime soon.

Yeah i dont see that happening anytime soon either. I dont even know if something like this could just be patched. This seems like something that you would have to address at the root. Basically it seems like it needs a surgery to fix this not just a band aid lol.

[AdamV4xSBChamp]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

What's really sad is there is next to nothing to do. The Pro-Tak system is the EXACT way to handle double teams. The one and only difference is that the objective is to block the player, not tackle them.

If they took the exact logic used by Pro-Tak and altered the outcomes to exclude actually tackling the player and applied it to NTs, BAM, we have double teaming.

From a developer standpoint you have to be concerned with balance. Yes what your saying is possible (of course, anything is possible) but its not the answer. Because you'd have to set the odds very low that a double team or triple team could happen. Otherwise it could be easily reproduced by pretty much any gamer resulting in instant massive pressure on the QB at will. So in the end not a lot would change, we already see some double teaming now.

The 4-3 is fine and you can get plenty of sacks with it, we know that. The 3-4 takes a little more skill to run but you CAN be equally effective with it using smarter play calling knowing your personel. Ive been running the 3-4 for years on Madden online and against CPU and never had a problem getting a realistic amount of sacks.

The problem is with most people they want to play safety and have coverage and get hot pressure at the same time. Very rarely are you gonna be able to do both on the same play, you have to sacrafice something. Take control of a Dlineman or LB who's blitzing every now and then. The sacks will come.

[Whammer]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

Why does everyone think that in the NFL the NT draws a double team all the time? If 1 person can block him then why would any team waste another blocker?
It's not like it's a rule that the NT must be double teamed.

[Poetique]

Re: What is the consensus on the 3-4?

From a developer standpoint you have to be concerned with balance. Yes what your saying is possible (of course, anything is possible) but its not the answer. Because you'd have to set the odds very low that a double team or triple team could happen. Otherwise it could be easily reproduced by pretty much any gamer resulting in instant massive pressure on the QB at will. So in the end not a lot would change, we already see some double teaming now.

The 4-3 is fine and you can get plenty of sacks with it, we know that. The 3-4 takes a little more skill to run but you CAN be equally effective with it using smarter play calling knowing your personel. Ive been running the 3-4 for years on Madden online and against CPU and never had a problem getting a realistic amount of sacks.

The problem is with most people they want to play safety and have coverage and get hot pressure at the same time. Very rarely are you gonna be able to do both on the same play, you have to sacrafice something. Take control of a Dlineman or LB who's blitzing every now and then. The sacks will come.

Why would the odds on a double team occurring need to be low when the chances in the NFL are always or very high for some players? Casey Hampton, Albert Haynesworth, Jamal Williams, Pat Williams, Kevin Williams, etc. Those guys are pretty much always double teamed. With the exception of Pat/Kevin, who play a 4-3 scheme, yet even they are sometimes double teamed. But the "double team" currently in madden suits the 4-3 scheme just fine. 3-4 is the problem.

Madden has enough stats to determine who does and doesn't draw a double team (for that matter since EA is so stat happy they could specifically add Double and Triple team stats to players and implement it that way if they wanted to...)

Triple teams aren't too few and far between for some players either (Haynesworth is a frequent flyer of them). But that's the only one that would need to have a "low" chance of occurring.

Obviously some of the more elite offensive lines can get away with single-teaming a player and that certainly needs to be accounted for, but even elite o. lines sometimes have to double team some players (Again, Haynesworth, Hampton, and a few others).

And you're right. There does need to be balance.

Using the 4-3 scheme there's no reason to user a lineman because you're going to get pressure regardless. So how is a 3-4 user having to user a lineman to get an equal amount of pressure balanced? It's not.

And actually, I equally prefer control over one of two positions, and one of them is linebacker. But I shouldn't have to play linebacker while someone using a 4-3 can basically user whoever they want to and still get more pressure than I do.

As I said, I'm very proficient with the 3-4, and I definitely know how to work with it.

But I don't see why superior 3-4 players should have to apply more effort than an average or good 4-3 player just to get the same amount of pressure. Especially considering it's hinged on one problem they doesn't require much effort to be fixed at all with the addition of the Pro-Tak system.