What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

[johnnyg713]

REAL-TIME PRESENTATION!!!!

This point has been brought up numerous times in the past but really needs to be brought up again. Take a look at what NBA2k, MLB2k, and the show have done in terms of real time. IMO madden needs to forget about cutscenes, that was Last-gen. It takes us away from the emersion of watching a football game. Everything should be happening seamlessly on the field before, during, and after the play. And not just on the field but on the sidelines as well (but thats another topic for debate).

To me working on a halftime and post-game show is a waste of time. Sure it was cool in NFL 2k5 but that is not what people want out of sports games anymore. Developers have the power now to make presentation happen DURING gameplay. Why not use it? With sports games finally implementing real-time this should be what gamers should expect as the standard for presentation.

[TheWatcher]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

All those games you mentioned have cut scenes. It's just that they're done better than Madden, MLB: The Show is on another level above all the other games.

I know the outcomes of the Halftime and Postgame were a letdown. But getting rid of it altogether would be going backwards. Those things are part of a broadcast, so if anything it can't be taken out if you want to achieve that goal. They just need to make it better.

[johnnyg713]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

All those games you mentioned have cut scenes. It's just that they're done better than Madden, MLB: The Show is on another level above all the other games.

From what i understand the cutscenes these games use besides the replays are all real time. Madden uses cutscenes that aren't actually happening in real time, for example chain gang coming onto the field to measure the spot of the ball. When you play games such as NBA2k the camera focuses on a player or coach that is doing something in real-time. This is the part in presentation where I feel madden has take a step back.

As for the halftime postgame show, I do agree with you there where they must be improved. However they dont make PLAYING the game actually feel like your watchin it on television. What I mean is, we all play videogames because of interaction. We shouldn't have to "watch" a video or clip that makes us feel like we are playing in the game on sundays. IMO it should be what is going on as we play. If you get what Im saying...

[TheWatcher]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

From what i understand the cutscenes these games use besides the replays are all real time. Madden uses cutscenes that aren't actually happening in real time, for example chain gang coming onto the field to measure the spot of the ball. When you play games such as NBA2k the camera focuses on a player or coach that is doing something in real-time. This is the part in presentation where I feel madden has take a step back.

Hmmmm... that's an interesting take. I've always known of cut scenes to be the opposite of real-time. So, basically you wouldn't want cut scenes at all, but everything real-time. I'm with you on that, but in order for that to happen in Madden you need an overhaul to everything that currently takes place during post-play.

One thing I always mention about NFL 2K5 was that most of their post-play situations on-field were actually just very well-crafted cut scenes. They were done so well that unless you're just really scrutinizing hard you don't even pay attention to the fact that there are tiny giveaways that you're actually looking at something totally pre-scripted. The Show does this brilliantly, too, even beyond what they did in 2K5.

Right now, Madden doesn't actually have very many true cut scenes aside from the ones that are obvious cut scenes like the stuff that happens on the sideline. The stuff that happens during pre-play (like the shot of the QB and rest of the offense walking to the line) and post-play (sans the obvious cut scenes like players chest bumping or celebrating together), are all happening in real-time. The problem is that a lot of it is just not very good because the animations are either too stiff, over-exaggerated, or too short and loop back to the run-to-the-huddle animation too quickly for players that are close enough to the huddle spot that they should be walking rather than running or jogging.

As for the halftime postgame show, I do agree with you there where they must be improved. However they dont make PLAYING the game actually feel like your watchin it on television. What I mean is, we all play videogames because of interaction. We shouldn't have to "watch" a video or clip that makes us feel like we are playing in the game on sundays. IMO it should be what is going on as we play. If you get what Im saying...

I honestly can't say I really understand. So my question is, what do you want to see happening differently, or more of, or less of, in regards to the halftime and postgame?

[Trooper]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

I would love to see full real-time interaction, like every player on the sideline interacting with each other...the coaches walking around and when there is a game winning/game changing play...the players storm the field in celebration

[SageInfinite]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Madden definitely needs to make the leap to real time as far as presentation goes(and I wouldn't even say this if they didn't do such a bad job on the cutscenes), and for god sake watch a broadcast EA/Tiburon. You've got a couple of cameras that mimic a broadcast replay wise, but the pre/post play stuff is terrible for this game to be so far along in this generation. The camera angles they use now do nothing but show off how bad and stiff the animations are pre/post play. You'd think they'd want to cover those up but nope, lol.

MLB The show made the leap to real time this year, hopefully Madden will follow suit, but there are so many things this game needs, even for a presentation guy like myself, it gets pushed to the back.

Edit
The pre-play stuff isn't that bad, there just isn't enough variety as far as focusing on certain players. The post play stuff is horrible though.

[ZoneKIller]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Speak for yourself with the halftime shows and what not,I want the shows to be better.

[Segagendude]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

I agree about the RTP. Would add a real sense of realism to Madden.

The halftime show is bland, but OTOH, the post game "Extra Point" show is a tad better. It's a good start, but needs much more.

RTP + a genuine halftime show, complete with scores and highlights, would do wonders for the overall feel of the game.


And don't anyone add, "fix the gameplay first!!!" We know this, but this thread is about presentation.

Thanks.....lol.

[johnnyg713]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Watcher I think I need to clarify, you are correct when it comes to cutscenes they are scripted and are not real-time. What I mean by real-time "shots" (i should say..) is the camera focusing in on something that is happening while everything else is still going on. I want to show you some examples of what I mean when it comes to real time. Im using NBA 2k10 because they do a really good job of real time presentation.

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At 0:32 - you see lebron james doing his pregame warmup with his teammate now at about 0:38 you see the camera just changes to a different angle to show a close up of Lebron. Everything is still going on around him. The camera just choses to focus on him.

A better example is at 1:46 - Calderon hits a 3 pointer. As the game is going on in real time and the other team sets up to inbound the ball after the basket, the camera quickly switches over to Jose Calerdon as he runs back to get on defense.

Another one here at 3:32 - you see lebron James get charged. What I love about this clip is that his teammate helps him up after the foul. There are many occasions where Ive seen the player from the other team help a person on the ground up or they get up themselves even though its the same situation. You see that in real time that the camera focuses on James after the foul to show his reaction. However that doesnt mean other things are going on as this is all happening. The player charged with the foul has his own reaction, teammates and coaches have their own reactions. There are multiple ways for the player to see the same thing happen and the camera angles are what make things fresh.

There is a lot of things that people do not appreciation that are there to make you feel like you are watching a tv broadcast. NBA2k does such a good job with not only animations of the players but stuff like stat over lays to coaches and players on the bench reacting to whats actually happing on the court. I can even go as far as crowd, mascot, and camera men animations. Everything and everyone is reacting to the gameplay and what is happening on the court to what the player is doing. This all happens in real time with no videos or cutscenes being played.

In madden when u want to see emotion of the players and coaches or something important after the play is over.. the game switches over to a cut scene. Yes its cool to see a quick clip of the coach being mad on the sidelines and throwing his clipboard but wouldnt it be cooler to see the coach being mad and marching up and down the sidelines with his arms in the air as the game is actually going on. Seeing coaches and players catching balls thrown away by the qb on the sidelines or players stopping runners as they go out of bounds is the type of detail that sports games are implementing this gen. There are so many more examples I can think of such as the ref respotting the ball after the play is dead as the players go back to the huddle, or real-time substitutions and packages, or real-time injuries. I think you get my point.

Half time and post game shows are great but to me this is the type of stuff thats going to make me feel like im watching the game on tv.

[TheWatcher]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

MLB The show made the leap to real time this year, hopefully Madden will follow suit, but there are so many things this game needs, even for a presentation guy like myself, it gets pushed to the back.

I agree. I think before they can even think about using real-time as a total replacement for cut scenes they have to get post-play movements up to par first. Otherwise, we're just going to see the same mess with longer duration, lol. If people are complaining now (and they are valid complaints that I agree with), just imagine what would be the outcome if they went all real-time with what they have in place now. That would be a disaster.

I don't think people realize how much of an undertaking this is. This is a multi-year deal to get this right, just considering where it is right now. I'll be optimistic and say that Madden 10 was year one, but clearly there is still an enormous amount of work to be done to the post-play stuff. Of course, the first step is for the team to recognize that this is a big problem presentation-wise. To us, it's pretty cut and dry. We know it's a problem. I mean, some of these movements have been around since Madden 06, and they weren't good then, soooo...

[johnnyg713]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

I agree. I think before they can even think about using real-time as a total replacement for cut scenes they have to get post-play movements up to par first. Otherwise, we're just going to see the same mess with longer duration, lol. If people are complaining now (and they are valid complaints that I agree with), just imagine what would be the outcome if they went all real-time with what they have in place now. That would be a disaster.

I don't think people realize how much of an undertaking this is. This is a multi-year deal to get this right, just considering where it is right now. I'll be optimistic and say that Madden 10 was year one, but clearly there is still an enormous amount of work to be done to the post-play stuff. Of course, the first step is for the team to recognize that this is a big problem presentation-wise. To us, it's pretty cut and dry. We know it's a problem. I mean, some of these movements have been around since Madden 06, and they weren't good then, soooo...

100% agree

[speedy9386]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Do the Madden devs know they have the ESPN license? If so they should try using it sometime. If the presentation for 2k5 could be that good I don't see why 5 years later on a next gen console they can't be even better, but then again it is Madden we're talking about.

[TheWatcher]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Watcher I think I need to clarify, you are correct when it comes to cutscenes they are scripted and are not real-time. What I mean by real-time "shots" (i should say..) is the camera focusing in on something that is happening while everything else is still going on. I want to show you some examples of what I mean when it comes to real time. Im using NBA 2k10 because they do a really good job of real time presentation.

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At 0:32 - you see lebron james doing his pregame warmup with his teammate now at about 0:38 you see the camera just changes to a different angle to show a close up of Lebron. Everything is still going on around him. The camera just choses to focus on him.

A better example is at 1:46 - Calderon hits a 3 pointer. As the game is going on in real time and the other team sets up to inbound the ball after the basket, the camera quickly switches over to Jose Calerdon as he runs back to get on defense.

Another one here at 3:32 - you see lebron James get charged. What I love about this clip is that his teammate helps him up after the foul. There are many occasions where Ive seen the player from the other team help a person on the ground up or they get up themselves even though its the same situation. You see that in real time that the camera focuses on James after the foul to show his reaction. However that doesnt mean other things are going on as this is all happening. The player charged with the foul has his own reaction, teammates and coaches have their own reactions. There are multiple ways for the player to see the same thing happen and the camera angles are what make things fresh.

There is a lot of things that people do not appreciation that are there to make you feel like you are watching a tv broadcast. NBA2k does such a good job with not only animations of the players but stuff like stat over lays to coaches and players on the bench reacting to whats actually happing on the court. I can even go as far as crowd, mascot, and camera men animations. Everything and everyone is reacting to the gameplay and what is happening on the court to what the player is doing. This all happens in real time with no videos or cutscenes being played.

In madden when u want to see emotion of the players and coaches or something important after the play is over.. the game switches over to a cut scene. Yes its cool to see a quick clip of the coach being mad on the sidelines and throwing his clipboard but wouldnt it be cooler to see the coach being mad and marching up and down the sidelines with his arms in the air as the game is actually going on. Seeing coaches and players catching balls thrown away by the qb on the sidelines or players stopping runners as they go out of bounds is the type of detail that sports games are implementing this gen. There are so many more examples I can think of such as the ref respotting the ball after the play is dead as the players go back to the huddle, or real-time substitutions and packages, or real-time injuries. I think you get my point.

Half time and post game shows are great but to me this is the type of stuff thats going to make me feel like im watching the game on tv.

Yeah, I see what you're saying Johnny. I thought 2K9 looked good, but wow. 2K10 is even crazier. 2K just has a knack for presentation. The animations are nothing short of impressive.

Hard to distinguish NBA 2K10 from a real life broadcast if a person isn't paying real close attention. Madden has a long way to go to get to that level. The animations that happen in Madden during non-play periods just aren't anywhere close to where we'd need it to be in order to touch the example you posted.

[FootballDetails]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

Hard to distinguish NBA 2K10 from a real life broadcast if a person isn't paying real close attention. Madden has a long way to go to get to that level. The animations that happen in Madden during non-play periods just aren't anywhere close to where we'd need it to be in order to touch the example you posted.

This is when the horrid feeling returns that years of innovation were lost after the exclusivity deal was signed.

Sports video games have evolved beyond ESPN NFL 2K5, but a lot of people are still begging Madden to catch up with it. (That may be more perception than reality at this point, but there you go.)

MLB 10: The Show has real time presentation. Backbreaker has Euphoria. The world moves fast. We shouldn't have to rely on one NFL game to keep up with everything.

[rocknroll1968]

Re: What Madden 11 needs in terms of presentation.

The only changes to presentation I really care about is....

Adding the ability to bypass all presentation content completely. I just want to get to the next play and not be forced to watch the ref make the call that I already know the answer to. I don't want to be forced to watch the half-time presentation (Supersiming the last play of the 2nd half is the only way around this) I also wish I could not have to watch the post-play player animations..like after a feidl goal the kicker's reaction....etc.

Once the play/quarter/half is over, I want to get to the play call screen immediately.