Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

[Finsfan46]

When you really think about it the Speed Rating in Madden seems like it is just wrong !! The way it is scaled now really seems to serve one purpose....If you make the players faster, seemingly that makes them perform better.
And my conclusion is the problem lies within the Speed Rating.

Basically I see it like this...

The "Fastest" guy in the Madden is rated 99, and for the record he ran a 4.24 (40 yd dash)... then as they trickle down to the Linemen, they are on the low end in Madden, rated around 50.
Now to us (Madden players) this does seem normal, but that does not make it right !

Usually the slowest times turned in at the Combines is around 5.1 to 5.3 seconds.....So if you really think about it, that's 1 second !....say the word "one"..........yep, thats how much faster the Fastest Player is compared to the Slowest Player, when it comes to running 40 Yards !

I think the Speed rating should have a much smaller scale, 12-99 does not work, and until that is realized, how can they possibly make the game work properly, if that scale is not right.

Other factors need to play into making a player better than others, not just making them faster !

Use the other ratings, and use them on the 12-99 scale, to show the difference between a good and bad player !

[jyoung]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

The speed rating is dominant in Madden because players run at full speed all the time.

Until there is a realistic model in place for acceleration and locomotion, nothing will change.

As long as players are able to turn on a dime and accelerate instantly in Madden, all the players on the field will be running at full speed the entire play, thus the speed rating will be felt a lot more than it should.

[bang911]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

I have a few replies:

You want a smaler scale, even though they only use ratings 50-99 in the speed category already??

40 times involve speed AND acceleration.

I agree with you on this "If you make the players faster, seemingly that makes them perform better."

[I Peench]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

The speed rating is dominant in Madden because players run at full speed all the time.

This

[Finsfan46]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

You want a smaler scale, even though they only use ratings 50-99 in the speed category already??

40 times involve speed AND acceleration.

I guess how I meant it all to come out...in a nutshell, I do not think Players Speed in the NFL is that far spread out (1 second from the Fastest to the Slowest, in not a huge differential... and this is in more areas than just the 40 yd dash....3-cone, 20 yd shuttle...all are about 1 second diff between Fastest and Slowest)

SO Madden makes it wider that than it really is, to make players seem on a different level than others.

But really it should be in other ratings that you see HUGE spreads, and that is what will make the players different.

[PantherBeast_OS]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

To be very honest speed in the game doesn't really bother me. I been playing with this speed for 20 year plus. It's just a game to me. I just love having fun. I think the speed thing is fine in madden

[ChampN252]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

I agree. It not that unusual to see an o-line man pull to lead block and actually run down the field with the back for a few seconds.

[craxus]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

Actually, you are right about the difference between players speeds. I remember a TMQ article when some one broke down the math about the distances covered by a guy running a 4.5 and a guy running 4.3, basically it worked out the 4.3 guy was 2 inches ahead of the guy running the 4.5. After 100 yards a little over 5 inches.

The major problem with maddens speed rating is calculation. The go by a 40 time that actually show acceleration more than speed. take a look at this: since the theoretical top speed a human can achieve is 30 mph, the math on Usain Bolts Olympic time was a top speed of 27.45 mph, but his average speed was 23.35 mph. So which do we use?

Obviously, the acceleration needs to come in to play, but the have an acceleration rating, it just doesn't seem to do anything. This is a real problem for defensive backs, who on average have great speed (top end) but usually are not trained to accelerate very quickly from a dead stop as running back or wide out, since they have to react most of the time. Look at the One of the Packers Vikings game (forgot which one) when Percy Harvin (97 spd) broke a long kick off return and was gone. But wait here comes Nick Collins (89), and crash into him from behind.

This also causes an issue with line backers, who in general run right around that same 23 mph mark just like the supposedly "faster" i.e. quicker players.

Frankly I would if I were in control I would make the spd = 24 mph hard capped and make it so every single player achieves that speed, BUT (see big BUT so you know to read and think before dismissal) tie it heavily to acceleration, so the points of reaching that speed are drastically different.

[KBLover]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

Speed in and of itself isn't killing anything.

It's speed with the lack of some kind of acceleration factor.

Even a rudimentary "acceleration = how much delay before you start running" that was in FBPro would help make a difference. Then add in the AGI factor of losing speed while changing directions and then how long you were at that speed before going to top speed again (ACC) - it could really change some dynamics.

Also, the full speed scale COULD work, but it would be slicing time into really thin slices, like .01 of a second.

To answer your question about Bolt - a game should use his top speed and use acceleration to make his overall average time. For example, if his average speed was 20 mph and top speed 27 mph, that's a sign of slower acceleration, so that rating should drop. I would NOT use 23 MPH as Bolt's top speed. It is NOT his top speed, but his overall speed over the full distance - that's where ACC comes in.

Basically:

SPD = player's top speed. Don't tinker with this - if he's blazing OMGLOLWUT fast, then so be it.

ACC = time it takes to get to top speed. Use the delay before running if nothing else. If someone could cover 40 yds in 3.6 second at top speed, but does it in 4.3 - then there's the delay.

AGI = the same role as ACC, except it's used in situations where a change of direction is performed. A HB with high AGI would maintain his speed easily after a juke or be a good "one cut and go" type of runner. A WR with high AGI would make a good route runner for complex/multiple move routes (slant and go, out and up, post-corner)


So:

100 SPD, 0 ACC, 100 AGI - guy who changes directions without losing much of any speed, but takes a LONG time to get up to that speed. These are guys that might disappoint in the 40. You can see their speed, but they don't look like they "run hard" or have "good technique".

100 SPD, 100 ACC, 0 AGI - guy who's freaking fast and gets to top speed in a couple steps (very low delay), but if he has to change directions - he struggles mightily, making him just a good straight-line runner. This type of player will show well in the 40 - so a top 40 time would be a sign of SPD + ACC being high. AGI would be unknown since there's no changing direction in the 40.

0 SPD, 100 ACC, 100 AGI - slow as dirt, but at least gets up to his speed fast, and if he has to change directions, he does so easily and maintaining his speed. These types guys might have a decent 40 times and could be useful on the field, but might slip because they "look slow". These are the "sneaky fast" types (not with 0 SPD, of course, but lower SPD but high ACC and AGI)

Stuff like that would really change dynamics, imo.

And was done back in '98 heh

[bang911]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

This is how the speed of a sprinter correlates to time. In madden it seems that they get to their peak too quickly, and stay at this maximum without any deviation. Sprinters are not even at their top speed after 4 seconds.

[Finsfan46]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

Speed in and of itself isn't killing anything.

It's speed with the lack of some kind of acceleration factor.

My examples are just from the Combines event results. So everything is included in there, thats not just a top speed exercise...Everyone runs 40 yards, and they are timed to see how long it takes them to finish.....and the difference between the fastest and the slowest is still only 1 second.

Everyone in the NFL is Fast ! 300+ lb Linemen run 5.1 40's, that is .9 seconds slower than the fastest WR this year (and most years)

But for example in Madden, I can take a 55 overall rated WR or HB, but as long as he has a 90+ speed and accl ratings, I will make him look like an All-Pro just on the ability of getting him in the open field and running away from all the 80 speed rated LB's and Safties.

If the Fastest guy in Madden is rated 99....should the slowest really be 50 clicks down from that ? 50 clicks equals 1 second ?
With how I see the speed play out when I play Madden (especially the above example)....... I say that range is too big !

I would go out on a limb (not really, I have done this already) ...and say that if the Range changed to, 99 as the fastest and 80 for the slowest, the game would play alot different.

[xNYGx]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

I like this thread. Hopefully the guys at EA take a look at this and maybe they can do something to tweak acceleration, and work on that speed threshold they have in Madden for us.

Which reminds me... for those of you playing OFFLINE, there is a slider which can make player's speed ratings play differently. I'm not sure many people are aware of that.

[jake125]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

I agree with this thread, speed is king in Madden, all you have to do is build a team around fast players and you"ll be unstoppable. I'm tired of feeling like Al Davis whenever I draft only picking the fastest players.

[KBLover]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

But for example in Madden, I can take a 55 overall rated WR or HB, but as long as he has a 90+ speed and accl ratings, I will make him look like an All-Pro just on the ability of getting him in the open field and running away from all the 80 speed rated LB's and Safties.

Well, there's more to that than just the SPD. Part of that is because the other ratings (including, say, CTH or AWR, if his OVR is that low) don't make enough difference either.

If the Fastest guy in Madden is rated 99....should the slowest really be 50 clicks down from that ? 50 clicks equals 1 second ?
With how I see the speed play out when I play Madden (especially the above example)....... I say that range is too big !

It is too big to be practical. It COULD work. If 0 is, say 5.5 and 100 is 4.2, then each point would be worth .013 seconds.

So it would take 10 points to be worth a tenth of a second difference.

Yeah, too big to be worth big that big.

I'm sure 80 to 99 would work with the way it currently is working. But, slicing the time into smaller slices could work with the full scale as well.

That way 50 SPD wouldn't be worlds slower than 99 SPD and EA could not have to worry about learning a new rating scale when making rosters. 50 SPD would be about a half second slower if the whole scale represented a range of 1.5 seconds from fastest to slowest.

But, what I'm saying is that the speed rating is just 1/2 to 1/3 of the equation.

Like you and another person said, the 40 time is top speed + acceleration, yet you seem to be equating 40 time to just speed.

I think the fact SPD isn't married to ACC in making up how/why the player runs their 40 time is what's doing things in.

[KBLover]

Re: Is Speed Rating what's killing Madden

Which reminds me... for those of you playing OFFLINE, there is a slider which can make player's speed ratings play differently. I'm not sure many people are aware of that.

Yep, and many think setting threshold over 50 for the reasons the OP mentioned works pretty well.

I think the idea is sound - but it seems the engine has some issues with it (again, sliders having to fight the engine as much as the players themselves )