Route Based Passing in Madden 10?

[Sven Draconian]

Valdarez, I'm truly curious what your expectation here is. Should the WR ignore the ball in the air and run their pattern like a robot? You keep citing that receivers break off their pattern and go after the ball. They damn well better go after the ball. Their job is to CATCH the ball.

Similar to the "psychic" DB play. They break as soon the QB throws (or startst he motion, or you hit the button whatever point they actually do it). Again, they should. They are playing the ball. Obviously there are some issues (DB's running the route before the receiver, head tracking issues that make it look ugly).

Are you claiming that players shouldn't react to the ball being thrown? Ridiculous.

There are a lot of things about a modern passing game you can't replicate in a video game by AI alone. For example, lets say a slot receiver is supposed to run a corner route (Smash concept). Depending on the look they get at the line, and the action post snap, the defense could leave that slot "uncovered". The slot knows it. The QB knows it. They're going to throw him the ball.

Or you have an outside receiver running a Dig/Out. Depending on the coverage that dig might turn into a "streak" or some sort of quasi-curl stop route. If you get a cover 2 look, a Dig isn't a great choice because the OLB is going to be standing in that spot. The open hole is between the corner and safety, wider than the linebacker. The receiver knows it. The quarterback knows it. Throw the ball.

There are also patterns that don't exist in the game. For example, the 4-verts concept (regardless of formation) is based on offensive landmarks, but adjusted based on defense. If you have a post route called, but you get a cover 3 look (pre or post snap), it is really a skinnier post/streak look. The receiver isn't going to run into the safety, the QB isn't going to blindly throw it at him because a "post" is the route. Find the green grass, throw to it, run to it.


The biggest issue with the passing game is the trajectory of the ball (linebackers making too many plays on deeper throws) and the locomotion in and out of cuts (not enough seperation created, not enough reward for throwing on time).

But the idea that you should limited on when and where you can throw is silly. The game can't adjust based on my vision and adjust my receivers, so it damn well shouldn't limit my ability to work within the system. Once Ian and Co. can hook my PS3 into my brain to read my throughts and adjust the routes on the fly, I guess we'll just have to live with how it is. I certainly don't want the players ignoring my user input.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Valdarez, I'm truly curious what your expectation here is. Should the WR ignore the ball in the air and run their pattern like a robot? You keep citing that receivers break off their pattern and go after the ball. They damn well better go after the ball. Their job is to CATCH the ball. Similar to the "psychic" DB play. They break as soon the QB throws (or startst he motion, or you hit the button whatever point they actually do it). Again, they should. They are playing the ball. Obviously there are some issues (DB's running the route before the receiver, head tracking issues that make it look ugly). Are you claiming that players shouldn't react to the ball being thrown? Ridiculous. There are a lot of things about a modern passing game you can't replicate in a video game by AI alone. For example, lets say a slot receiver is supposed to run a corner route (Smash concept). Depending on the look they get at the line, and the action post snap, the defense could leave that slot "uncovered". The slot knows it. The QB knows it. They're going to throw him the ball. Or you have an outside receiver running a Dig/Out. Depending on the coverage that dig might turn into a "streak" or some sort of quasi-curl stop route. If you get a cover 2 look, a Dig isn't a great choice because the OLB is going to be standing in that spot. The open hole is between the corner and safety, wider than the linebacker. The receiver knows it. The quarterback knows it. Throw the ball. There are also patterns that don't exist in the game. For example, the 4-verts concept (regardless of formation) is based on offensive landmarks, but adjusted based on defense. If you have a post route called, but you get a cover 3 look (pre or post snap), it is really a skinnier post/streak look. The receiver isn't going to run into the safety, the QB isn't going to blindly throw it at him because a "post" is the route. Find the green grass, throw to it, run to it. The biggest issue with the passing game is the trajectory of the ball (linebackers making too many plays on deeper throws) and the locomotion in and out of cuts (not enough seperation created, not enough reward for throwing on time). But the idea that you should limited on when and where you can throw is silly. The game can't adjust based on my vision and adjust my receivers, so it damn well shouldn't limit my ability to work within the system. Once Ian and Co. can hook my PS3 into my brain to read my throughts and adjust the routes on the fly, I guess we'll just have to live with how it is. I certainly don't want the players ignoring my user input.

But we both know you can't complete a pass to a receiver that isn't expecting the ball to come to him. That leads to all kinds of ugly things in the passing game including turnovers. You will never get a bad pass due to miscommunication in Madden (rarely in APF but it happens).

You don't make the WR's psychic to compensate for a poor AI. If a WR has a post route in a 4 vert concept, he should adjust his route. That should be built into the AI. Simply put though, you shouldn't look for the ball on a post route until after you make your break either way.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

But we both know you can't complete a pass to a receiver that isn't expecting the ball to come to him. That leads to all kinds of ugly things in the passing game including turnovers. You will never get a bad pass due to miscommunication in Madden (rarely in APF but it happens).

But how do we communicate a receiver to be ready for the ball? Again, they can't read my throughts can they? If you want to tie it to awarness, that'd be alright.

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You don't make the WR's psychic to compensate for a poor AI. If a WR has a post route in a 4 vert concept, he should adjust his route. That should be built into the AI. Simply put though, you shouldn't look for the ball on a post route until after you make your break either way.

Sure, auto-adjustments would be cool, but do they really fix anything? I can auto-adjust the route by throwing it early.

More to the point, what logic should tell the WR to "look."

It's unrealistic to have the WR obey the play-art blindly. There isn't a WR in the NFL who can't sight-adjust a route (and, thus, know to look for the ball early on his post route when he gets certain looks). This is stuff that has been standard for over 30 years now, going back to Walsh and the WCO, the run and shoot and is a major theme in spread offense. Find the soft spot, run to it, the QB will throw it to the void.

Now, would it be more realistic to have the receviers change routes on the fly? Sure, but now you have problems with casual players expecting a post and getting a streak, or expecting a streak but getting a curl. They won't be happy. You also have to program that logic, when you arleady have it just allowing the QB to throw it anytime he wants too.

[Rocky]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

But how do we communicate a receiver to be ready for the ball? Again, they can't read my throughts can they? If you want to tie it to awarness, that'd be alright.

C'mon Sven, you know it's like this in real life too. If I'm a running back and I'm running a check down, I'm not looking for the ball until the top of the route. If the QB throws the ball to me at any point sooner, it's hitting me on the back of my helmet. I simply have no way to tell the ball is coming.

Obviously, there are some exceptions. If I read it to be a blitz, I'm going to look sooner or hurry up my route. I'm going to find the soft spot in the zone. But those are specific situations and should be built into the AI as such. If the opponent blitzes, the RB should read it and quicken up according to his AWR rating.

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Sure, auto-adjustments would be cool, but do they really fix anything? I can auto-adjust the route by throwing it early. More to the point, what logic should tell the WR to "look." It's unrealistic to have the WR obey the play-art blindly. There isn't a WR in the NFL who can't sight-adjust a route (and, thus, know to look for the ball early on his post route when he gets certain looks). This is stuff that has been standard for over 30 years now, going back to Walsh and the WCO, the run and shoot and is a major theme in spread offense. Find the soft spot, run to it, the QB will throw it to the void. Now, would it be more realistic to have the receviers change routes on the fly? Sure, but now you have problems with casual players expecting a post and getting a streak, or expecting a streak but getting a curl. They won't be happy. You also have to program that logic, when you arleady have it just allowing the QB to throw it anytime he wants too.

But even sight adjusts are built in. If you have no reason to sight adjust and the QB doesn't know you're going to sight adjust, you're not going to complete that pass. There should be no logic to tell the WR to look. The logic that tells the WR to look is based on the construction of the play and the relationship of the QB and wideouts in practice. If the WR is supposed to run a dig, he's supposed to run a dig...regardless of the coverage. Now there's football logic in some cases that says he's supposed to run a fade v. cover 2....and that logic should be put into the game. The user should be made aware of this (I've long been a proponent of an icon flashing if a receiver is open because he's "hot" due to a blitz and other things). But he shouldn't have psychic abilities to tell when the ball is coming if he's open. It doesn't make any sense.

[Sven Draconian]

Quote: Originally Posted by Rocky

C'mon Sven, you know it's like this in real life too. If I'm a running back and I'm running a check down, I'm not looking for the ball until the top of the route. If the QB throws the ball to me at any point sooner, it's hitting me on the back of my helmet. I simply have no way to tell the ball is coming.

What? If your running a checkdown route you better be looking for the ball the second you clear tackle box. Why would you wait to look for the ball? If the blitz is coming, the QB needs to get rid of it now (or else why bother with me running a route?)

Quote:

Obviously, there are some exceptions. If I read it to be a blitz, I'm going to look sooner or hurry up my route. I'm going to find the soft spot in the zone. But those are specific situations and should be built into the AI as such. If the opponent blitzes, the RB should read it and quicken up according to his AWR rating.

Why? It already works how it is now.

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But even sight adjusts are built in. If you have no reason to sight adjust and the QB doesn't know you're going to sight adjust, you're not going to complete that pass. There should be no logic to tell the WR to look. The logic that tells the WR to look is based on the construction of the play and the relationship of the QB and wideouts in practice.

Again, are they going to put a microchip into my head so my WR's know what I"m looking at? Then ther eis no "relationship", since it's a video game.

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If the WR is supposed to run a dig, he's supposed to run a dig...regardless of the coverage.

Unless it's supposed to convert to a curl or streak.

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Now there's football logic in some cases that says he's supposed to run a fade v. cover 2....and that logic should be put into the game.

Why? It's already in the game....by letting me throw the ball.

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The user should be made aware of this (I've long been a proponent of an icon flashing if a receiver is open because he's "hot" due to a blitz and other things). But he shouldn't have psychic abilities to tell when the ball is coming if he's open. It doesn't make any sense.

Yes, a big flashing icon is the answer, people love gawdy icons on the screen (like the pool-sized red circle).

And again, what about people who want to run the dig anway (say, they are good on the sticks and can catch that route better), and don't want it converted? Why stick it to them? What about guys who are expecting a dig route and it never happens so they just end up confused and annoyed?

If a receiver is open, he should look for the ball. If you want to tie it too awarness (assuming it is not already) cool, but don't start removing functionality from the game before of a pre-conceived notion of what is "realisitic". There are a lot of ways to play football, lots of schmes and lots of different ways QBs and receivers can react. Don't try and limit them based on an individual opinion of accuracy.

[Sven Draconian]

Should also throw in...

The idea that the ability to throw at any time is what breaks defensive coverage is wrong. The issues with defensive coverage are with logic in defending zones and limitations with the defensive playbook. If the defense was covering receivers properly, it wouldn't matter if you threw the ball "early."

[RogueHominid]

There's a pretty common route that suggests that the kind of miscommunication Valdarez asserts is impossible is actually both possible and common.

The "spot" route is often run off of a short motion, and the WR breaks in almost like a slant before settling down into a sharp curl. If you throw that route at the wrong time, the QB throws a slant, but the WR stops and curls and doesn't know where the ball is. Happens to me all the time. If you mess it up, it can be easy pickings for LBs, and your WR won't even compete for the ball because he doesn't know where it is.

This qualifies, no?

[Valdarez]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sven Draconian

Should also throw in... The idea that the ability to throw at any time is what breaks defensive coverage is wrong. The issues with defensive coverage are with logic in defending zones and limitations with the defensive playbook. If the defense was covering receivers properly, it wouldn't matter if you threw the ball "early."

No it's not. Why do you think they had to modify the logic? If you can throw&catch 'anytime', then you have to create ways to cover passes over the field. Some of that is accomplished via a lower ball arc, via LB's jumping making unrealistic catches, via incorrect/unrealistic acceleration, via psychic DBs, etc.