Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

[Netherscourge]

Here's the tagline they can sell:

"Never take the camera off the players. NEVER"

What does that mean? It means from the coin flip to the final whistle, the camera never comes off the players. NEVER. No cut-scenes. Just non-stop cameras on players as they move around the field in real time before, during and after plays. Different, changing, boroadcast-style camera angles of course - but they must all be synched up to the players on the field.

-No pre-animated cut-scenes. (Except for maybe the fans and stuff before and after games.)

-No "skipping" from the end of a play right back to the line of scrimmage with everyone already lined up and ready to go.

-Let the game engine automatically control the players after each play and follow them around as they mill around, chat with each other, get a quick drink from a water bottle, consult with coaches, wait for plays to come in, huddle up, etc... but do NOT take the camera off of them. Have overlays with playcalling and stuff - but make sure you can see the players and coaches in the background - NO CUT-SCENES. Let the game engine keep running the whole time and have the players and coaches and even the announcers discussing stuff as it would happen in real life on live TV. Replays are fine after plays too - but keep the players positioned and milling around in real-time so after the replay the players are still realistically simulated to where they were going to before the replay started.

-Follow the players into and out of the lockeroom at halftime. Show them getting together and chatting with the coaches, stretching, getting wrapped up with tape, etc... Show them happy and upbeat when they are winning or tied. Show them downbeat and depressed with coaches really animated if they are getting killed by the other team. (no nudity of course) And then fade to a TV up in the corner of the lockeroom where the highlight show begins. But again - keep the TV monitor itself in view - allow the user to pan around the lockeroom at like lockers or players. Then when the user is ready, you follow the players and coaches BACK out onto the field.

-If people don't want to wait for stuff - then allow a "Fast Foward" opton, sort of like the REWIND option in Madden 10, where everything moves in superfast speed, up to the next play. But DO NOT SKIP OVER anything - just have the game engine go high-speed to the next play or the end of halftime or whatever.

-After touchdowns or any big play, show the players actually running up to the scoring player and celebrating - DO NOT CUT AWAY - just let everything flow in real-time, so that the actual players involved are seen realistically coming together and celebreating. Not just magically appearing in the endzone celebrating. Allow replays of course, but again - show the players relative to where they SHOULD be after the replay ends and the camera is back on the field - as if everything was moving in real time during the replay. Don't just cut-away and have players somewhere it's theoretically impossible to get to in such a period of time.



See where I'm going here? Never take the gameplay camera off the players. No cut-scenes at all - just let everything happen in real time.

Write a MASSIVE scripting engine to control the players in between plays so there is no cutting away or jumping from everyone being on the ground after a play to already being lined up at the line of scrimmage with a click of a button.

Make it all 100% natural and real-time looking. And only allow the option of a high-speed FAST FORWARD to get things sped-up for people who are in a rush.

That's how you fix on-the-field presentation IMO.

[I know this is a pipe-dream, but this is what I would hope for is a true Football SIM]

[thudias]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

this stance is too absolute..i think there should be room for everything.

[HealyMonster]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Paging "The Watcher" the post he made a while back outlineing step by step on how to improve presentation needs to be stickied and sent to the Madden team, it was perfect. Maybe someone can post it here since I dont even remember what thread that was in.

[BlackJack_Williams]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

I do agree with the touchdown celebrations. I was thinking that playing the NCAA 11 demo because the cut-scenes often offset what actually was going on moments before. it would be nice to see celebrations in real time

[Netherscourge]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

I do agree with the touchdown celebrations. I was thinking that playing the NCAA 11 demo because the cut-scenes often offset what actually was going on moments before. it would be nice to see celebrations in real time

Yea - it's weird when a QB throws like a 80 yard TD pass to a reciever - and then 2 seconds later the WR is in the endzone celebrating with players who were 80 yards behind the play 2 seconds ago...

I know we live in an era of short attentnon spans, but I for one would like to see the players actually meet up with each other in real-time before they celebrate instead of warping there magically.

A real 60 minute NFL game can take 3.5 to 4 hours. We don't have to get THAT crazy - but I wouldn't mind a single game of Madden, even with 5 minute quarters, playing out over a 35 or 40 minute period. I would actually enjoy watching it - especially in coaching mode with multiple, real broadcast cameras.

And allowing the high-speed fast-forward option to shrink it down even more for people with ADD.

But hey - if people want a true SIM - then that's what they are utlimately going to have to accept.

[RGiles36]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Yeah, the OP post is way too subjective and absolute. Having cutscenes themselves is not the problem (cough 2K5). I'm not going to put a megathread together of my own suggestions, but I don't feel as though the OP's ideas are the key to fixing presentation.

Then again -- and I'll get roasted for this -- who's to say their presentation needs fixing? Hear me out: I'm starting to think that EA intentionally puts their own spin on presentation. In other words, they're aware that they're not following TV presentation to a T and that's their objective. They don't want their presentation exactly like TV's or 2K's past football games. Why else would they continue to fall flat? I can't see how we all can watch a broadcast and come up with a hundred different things that EA is not doing right. They watch football games too. So aside from the silly blunders (out of sequence cutscenes for example), I think it's their intention to have unique presentation regardless of how underwhelming it is.

[Netherscourge]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Yeah, the OP post is way too subjective and absolute. Having cutscenes themselves is not the problem (cough 2K5). I'm not going to put a megathread together of my own suggestions, but I don't feel as though the OP's ideas are the key to fixing presentation.

Then again -- and I'll get roasted for this -- who's to say their presentation needs fixing? Hear me out: I'm starting to think that EA intentionally puts their own spin on presentation. In other words, they're aware that they're not following TV presentation to a T and that's their objective. They don't want their presentation exactly like TV's or 2K's past football games. Why else would they continue to fall flat? I can't see how we all can watch a broadcast and come up with a hundred different things that EA is not doing right. They watch football games too. So aside from the silly blunders (out of sequence cutscenes for example), I think it's their intention to have unique presentation regardless of how underwhelming it is.

I don't hate cut-scenes (unless of course they are out-of-synch with what's actually going on on the field), but I do think on a Next-Gen console, the game engine itself should be negating the need for cut-scenes to add emotion to the game.

2K5 was great. It's cut-scenes and presentation were outstanding. It's been 6 years now. We're on more powerful consoles now. Why do we still need cut-scenes to convey the emotion of the game? Why can't the programmers allow the actual game engine ITSELF to convey the emotion using advanced scripting?

Just saying.

[RaiderKtulu]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Yeah, the OP post is way too subjective and absolute. Having cutscenes themselves is not the problem (cough 2K5). I'm not going to put a megathread together of my own suggestions, but I don't feel as though the OP's ideas are the key to fixing presentation.

Then again -- and I'll get roasted for this -- who's to say their presentation needs fixing? Hear me out: I'm starting to think that EA intentionally puts their own spin on presentation. In other words, they're aware that they're not following TV presentation to a T and that's their objective. They don't want their presentation exactly like TV's or 2K's past football games.

You know, this is exactly what it should be. The video game should be the driving force in what actual broadcasts look like, not the other way around.

Look at the yellow first down marker - that was in video game football for years before the technology to do it on a real broadcast showed up. Or the wire-cam, letting us see replays from a very Madden-like view.

EA shouldn't need to copy the real thing if they don't want to.

[jfsolo]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Yeah, the OP post is way too subjective and absolute. Having cutscenes themselves is not the problem (cough 2K5). I'm not going to put a megathread together of my own suggestions, but I don't feel as though the OP's ideas are the key to fixing presentation.

Then again -- and I'll get roasted for this -- who's to say their presentation needs fixing? Hear me out: I'm starting to think that EA intentionally puts their own spin on presentation. In other words, they're aware that they're not following TV presentation to a T and that's their objective. They don't want their presentation exactly like TV's or 2K's past football games. Why else would they continue to fall flat? I can't see how we all can watch a broadcast and come up with a hundred different things that EA is not doing right. They watch football games too. So aside from the silly blunders (out of sequence cutscenes for example), I think it's their intention to have unique presentation regardless of how underwhelming it is.

I think its pretty clear that they are making a concerted effort to create their own presentation style. I think they have become quite enamored with their "EA Sports" presentation approach, and its unlikely that they going to be easily swayed into abandoning it for what I suspect they believe to be a "inferior" approach-i.e. broadcast style mimicry.

We never have any real data on these things, but I'd hazard a guess that they don't feel like their disdain for broadcast authenticity is costing them too many game sales.

The broadcast advocates are very passionate and quite vocal about what they want, but I don't believe their numbers to be legion.

Besides a sales increase, the only way that EA would make a change in their presentation style is to convince the big wigs that they would get a major bump in their Metacritic numbers by doing so.

[ODogg]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

I actually posted this in another thread last year on how to do presentation. It wasn't quite so absolute but I did espouse the belief that we should be doing more actual scenes with the players on the field in the moment and not constant cutscenes.

However the problem isn't really cut scenes, it's EA's not using them in common sense ways. Like you throw an 80 yard bomb and then 2 seconds later your QB and linemen are there congratulating your WR. It'd make much more sense to have the cut scene show the WR walking upfield and them coming into the picture after a realistic amount of time. And also they'd have to have it varied so it wasn't always the same scene.

But then when you get into that you think, why not just do it in game? All of it. They could do window in window shots too, like ESPN did, where you see a coaches reaction to a missed FG...instead of cutting away, have it live, so it shows up right after you kick it. Things like that.

Honestly it seems as if the fans have a good grasp on this stuff and how it should go, the question is why can't EA fathom this sort of stuff???

[RGiles36]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

We never have any real data on these things, but I'd hazard a guess that they don't feel like their disdain for broadcast authenticity is costing them too many game sales.

Yeah agreed, and in some sense, the proof is in the pudding. Check the majority of the E3 vids (or almost all the ones I've seen). Almost every one of them features a user button mashing through the pre-and-post play action. I can't get a feel for what EA implemented b/c most people are so anxious to get back on the field. So while we ridicule EA for not spending enough time in this area, they could probably justify it with some examples and data.

Presentation will do its job when the game is demo-ing in your local Best Buy but when people get their hands on the game, I'm starting to see that many people could care less.

I'm not waving the proverbial white flag on any hopes of getting 100% broadcast presentation; just making sense out of the design decisions the team has made the past couple years.

[RGiles36]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Honestly it seems as if the fans have a good grasp on this stuff and how it should go, the question is why can't EA fathom this sort of stuff???

That's my point. Those guys aren't incompetent. So while I'm not breaking news or anything, I'm really starting to feel their style of presentation is intentional. They borrow some broadcast elements but that's as far as it goes.

[Segagendude]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

Here's the tagline they can sell:

"Never take the camera off the players. NEVER"

What does that mean? It means from the coin flip to the final whistle, the camera never comes off the players. NEVER. No cut-scenes. Just non-stop cameras on players as they move around the field in real time before, during and after plays. Different, changing, boroadcast-style camera angles of course - but they must all be synched up to the players on the field.

-No pre-animated cut-scenes. (Except for maybe the fans and stuff before and after games.)

-No "skipping" from the end of a play right back to the line of scrimmage with everyone already lined up and ready to go.

-Let the game engine automatically control the players after each play and follow them around as they mill around, chat with each other, get a quick drink from a water bottle, consult with coaches, wait for plays to come in, huddle up, etc... but do NOT take the camera off of them. Have overlays with playcalling and stuff - but make sure you can see the players and coaches in the background - NO CUT-SCENES. Let the game engine keep running the whole time and have the players and coaches and even the announcers discussing stuff as it would happen in real life on live TV. Replays are fine after plays too - but keep the players positioned and milling around in real-time so after the replay the players are still realistically simulated to where they were going to before the replay started.

-Follow the players into and out of the lockeroom at halftime. Show them getting together and chatting with the coaches, stretching, getting wrapped up with tape, etc... Show them happy and upbeat when they are winning or tied. Show them downbeat and depressed with coaches really animated if they are getting killed by the other team. (no nudity of course) And then fade to a TV up in the corner of the lockeroom where the highlight show begins. But again - keep the TV monitor itself in view - allow the user to pan around the lockeroom at like lockers or players. Then when the user is ready, you follow the players and coaches BACK out onto the field.

-If people don't want to wait for stuff - then allow a "Fast Foward" opton, sort of like the REWIND option in Madden 10, where everything moves in superfast speed, up to the next play. But DO NOT SKIP OVER anything - just have the game engine go high-speed to the next play or the end of halftime or whatever.

-After touchdowns or any big play, show the players actually running up to the scoring player and celebrating - DO NOT CUT AWAY - just let everything flow in real-time, so that the actual players involved are seen realistically coming together and celebreating. Not just magically appearing in the endzone celebrating. Allow replays of course, but again - show the players relative to where they SHOULD be after the replay ends and the camera is back on the field - as if everything was moving in real time during the replay. Don't just cut-away and have players somewhere it's theoretically impossible to get to in such a period of time.



See where I'm going here? Never take the gameplay camera off the players. No cut-scenes at all - just let everything happen in real time.

Write a MASSIVE scripting engine to control the players in between plays so there is no cutting away or jumping from everyone being on the ground after a play to already being lined up at the line of scrimmage with a click of a button.

Make it all 100% natural and real-time looking. And only allow the option of a high-speed FAST FORWARD to get things sped-up for people who are in a rush.

That's how you fix on-the-field presentation IMO.

[I know this is a pipe-dream, but this is what I would hope for is a true Football SIM]

In short, real time presentation. The Show did this well, but not quite well enough. (I.e. the same "hold the helmet" trot after a HR, and no celebration at home plate).

But overall, they captured the feel of being at the ballpark.

[Netherscourge]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

In short, real time presentation. The Show did this well, but not quite well enough. (I.e. the same "hold the helmet" trot after a HR, and no celebration at home plate).

But overall, they captured the feel of being at the ballpark.

EXACTLY!

There's just no need to pull away and queue up an out-of-synch cut-scene for everything in the game when the gameplay engine itself is good enough to just implement some scripted interactions right on the field after the whistle blows.

They have branching animations - why not just branch the whole game, before and after each play? Keep the cameras rolling and let the players act it out for us when we're not actually controlling them.

Plus - it might save some disc space getting rid of the animated cut-scene art/videos and just using scripted code in it's place.

[K_GUN]

Re: Here's what needs to be done to fix presentation

That's my point. Those guys aren't incompetent. So while I'm not breaking news or anything, I'm really starting to feel their style of presentation is intentional. They borrow some broadcast elements but that's as far as it goes.

and to piggyback....

if your EA and you 'emulate' 2k5 presentation then it's met with:

* that was done 6 years ago

-------------OR--------------

* that was done 6 years ago--but better