Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

[Sven Draconian]

The offensive improvements we've seen in Next Gen Madden have been a double edged sword. The passing game (in terms of concepts, plays, formation) is outstanding. Run blocking made incredible strides this season. You can even run a pretty darn good version of the option (triple or zone-read style) if you want too.

Make no mistake, the playbooks you see in Madden and NCAA are VERY good. If you think they're limited, well, you don't know what your doing. Sorry, no politically correct way to say that.

In fact, I can't play against the computer anymore because the playbooks are so good. It's like watching Michigan's defense everytime I fire up the game (and I've watched that defense, all season, it's been brutal).

This is obviously undesireable. I don't like the online game much, just not my cup of tea, but the offense is so GOOD that I keep wanting to play. The question becomes how do you fix this? Sliders won't do the job, it's not a slider issue. It might limit my scoring, but not in a way that makes it fun to play. All it does is create psychic DB's and JV-level lineman.

So the hope turns to 2012 and what needs to be done. IJust like they did with the offense, it's time to go back to basics. What are "defensive" basics?
-Alignment.
-Assignment.
-Continuity.

Lets go into some detail then....

[Sven Draconian]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Alignment

The #1 issue with EA football defense is poor defensive alignment. You have probably heard banter about playing good, SOUND defense. What makes a defense sound? Matching numbers and having a
"contain" player.

Here is an example of an offensive formation.


WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

The offense has "4" on the right and "3" on the left. The F and H can go both directions. The defense should reflect this by putting more defenders to the offensive right than the offensive left. However, often the AI will align itself like this.

.............$........................$
.....................L........L
C.........L....E........N....T...E................ .........C
WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

That would be the "under" or "over" defense in the playbook. I count 5 defenders on the offensive right. I count 6 on the offensive left.

Also, note how the corner is aligned way off of the Tightends. What's he going to do over there? It's like the defense is playing with 10 guys...

If you were to call a running play to the right side, say "Power O" , it should be a consistant 7-8-9 yard play (even more with stick skills). Outisde of getting the defensive end to get a nice animation and blow up the play it's easy.

Compare that to how the defense SHOULD align....

.............$........................$
.........................L........L
C.............E....T......N......E...L....C
WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

Magic. Same play call. Just a proper alignment. The corner is nice and tight and can actually help the play. The defense has matched numbers (They have 6 defenders on the offensive right). Can the offense still gain yards? Absolutley, but they have to get solid blocks on "E" and "L." It's not freebie yards.


Or, it might not feel the need to cover everybody

C...............$.........................$
..........................L.......L
....................L..T......N.....E...L.....C
WR..................T..G..C..G..T..TE
.....WR....WR.............Q..............
...............................H

Again, count the defenders. They have 6 on the offensive right. The offense has 3. At the same time, you have a trio of virtually uncovered WR. You can throw to the flats, or right up the seam, every snap.

Or, for you NCAA fans...just look at the speed option.

[havokeff]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Love defensive minded posts.

I have to say though, that the D in Madden, while not perfect, is pretty serviceable. I can shut down pretty much anyone I play against with the D that I run.

Also, while I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of attention to detail when it comes to D in Madden, all the issues you mentioned, can be addressed with manual control, shifts and some of the pre snap alignment calls. Again, not perfect, but serviceable.

Personally, I enjoy it this way. There is nothing better than watching my opponents get pissed and say that I am cheating as I shift and slant right into their plays because I recognize their plays from formation. I take great pleasure in that.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Alignment

The #1 issue with EA football defense is poor defensive alignment. You have probably heard banter about playing good, SOUND defense. What makes a defense sound? Matching numbers and having a
"contain" player.

Here is an example of an offensive formation.


WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

The offense has "4" on the right and "3" on the left. The F and H can go both directions. The defense should reflect this by putting more defenders to the offensive right than the offensive left. However, often the AI will align itself like this.

.............$........................$
.....................L........L
C.........L....E........N....T...E................ .........C
WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

That would be the "under" or "over" defense in the playbook. I count 5 defenders on the offensive right. I count 6 on the offensive left.

Also, note how the corner is aligned way off of the Tightends. What's he going to do over there? It's like the defense is playing with 10 guys...

If you were to call a running play to the right side, say "Power O" , it should be a consistant 7-8-9 yard play (even more with stick skills). Outisde of getting the defensive end to get a nice animation and blow up the play it's easy.

Compare that to how the defense SHOULD align....

.............$........................$
.........................L........L
C.............E....T......N......E...L....C
WR...............T..G..C..G..T..TE
...........................Q............TE
............................F
............................H

Magic. Same play call. Just a proper alignment. The corner is nice and tight and can actually help the play. The defense has matched numbers (They have 6 defenders on the offensive right). Can the offense still gain yards? Absolutley, but they have to get solid blocks on "E" and "L." It's not freebie yards.


Or, it might not feel the need to cover everybody

C...............$.........................$
..........................L.......L
....................L..T......N.....E...L.....C
WR..................T..G..C..G..T..TE
.....WR....WR.............Q..............
...............................H

Again, count the defenders. They have 6 on the offensive right. The offense has 3. At the same time, you have a trio of virtually uncovered WR. You can throw to the flats, or right up the seam, every snap.

Or, for you NCAA fans...just look at the speed option.

Not to change the subject, but zone-blocking is still not implemented right and there really aren't true protection schemes present in the game.

The other thing about offense is while they are trying to implement some "concepts" that are prevalent among NFL offenses, route depths are often way off. This is primarily because the timing is off. The receivers do not cover as much ground as quickly as they should, leading to routes being programmed to break off at shallow depths, which causes major field-spacing issues.

As for the defense, the number's matching is an issue, but like the other poster said, at least you can adjust, which is more realistic any way. Defenses must adjust their alignments to the offense's formation before every snap, although maybe the game should do it automatically.

I feel that another major problem for defense is the lack of true gap control. The game designers need to find a way to utilize true defensive assignments (Force, alley/plug, scrape and cutback responsiblilties) instead of just having the DL blow up attempted blocks.

[kjcheezhead]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Love defensive minded posts.

I have to say though, that the D in Madden, while not perfect, is pretty serviceable. I can shut down pretty much anyone I play against with the D that I run.

Also, while I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of attention to detail when it comes to D in Madden, all the issues you mentioned, can be addressed with manual control, shifts and some of the pre snap alignment calls. Again, not perfect, but serviceable.

Personally, I enjoy it this way. There is nothing better than watching my opponents get pissed and say that I am cheating as I shift and slant right into their plays because I recognize their plays from formation. I take great pleasure in that.

Not really. Look at his first example with the db way outside and totally out of the play. It's really hard to manually get him into position and have time to do anything else defensivly, so the best option is to shift your lbs to the offensive right.

By doing this tho, you've just exposed your defense to a slant pattern by the wr which should result in a 6-9 yard game as well.

If your a talented offensive player in this game, you almost unstoppable because of stuff like this.

[Sven Draconian]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Love defensive minded posts.

I have to say though, that the D in Madden, while not perfect, is pretty serviceable. I can shut down pretty much anyone I play against with the D that I run.

Also, while I agree with you whole heartedly on the lack of attention to detail when it comes to D in Madden, all the issues you mentioned, can be addressed with manual control, shifts and some of the pre snap alignment calls. Again, not perfect, but serviceable.

Personally, I enjoy it this way. There is nothing better than watching my opponents get pissed and say that I am cheating as I shift and slant right into their plays because I recognize their plays from formation. I take great pleasure in that.

I must not have made this clear. I'm referring to the Computer's defense against a human. As a human I can get into the look I want without a ton of difficulty, but I can't stop the computer from misaligning itself.

Not to change the subject, but zone-blocking is still not implemented right and there really aren't true protection schemes present in the game.

There are a lot of styles of "zone" blocking. I think they are using covered/uncovered rules. NOt the style I would have picked, but, atleast it's consistant.

The protections leave something to be desired.

The other thing about offense is while they are trying to implement some "concepts" that are prevalent among NFL offenses, route depths are often way off. This is primarily because the timing is off. The receivers do not cover as much ground as quickly as they should, leading to routes being programmed to break off at shallow depths, which causes major field-spacing issues.

I know what you mean on a few of the concepts (Levels is one that has some issues. Stick can also be tricky) but I've noticed that the route running attribute effects that as well. Like zone-blocking, things aren't perfect....but they do provide the right feel and a degree of simulation. Even if you have to fudge it a little to get it too work right.

As for the defense, the number's matching is an issue, but like the other poster said, at least you can adjust, which is more realistic any way. Defenses must adjust their alignments to the offense's formation before every snap, although maybe the game should do it automatically.

I feel that another major problem for defense is the lack of true gap control. The game designers need to find a way to utilize true defensive assignments (Force, alley/plug, scrape and cutback responsiblilties) instead of just having the DL blow up attempted blocks.

Scrape and cutback have been alright. I think the new blocking kinda/sorta fixed LB play in some ways. The DB run support is brutal...and linebackers that still run away from the play at time (especially OLB in a zone).

[LBzrule]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Sven excellent post. I just hope they can get some things down this year on the fundamentals side but also add more depth to the defensive playbooks. They are pretty bland. I hope they get alignment issues squared away and I hope they get the line stunts working with smooth turning/twisting by the defensive linemen and IF they can get linebackers to run twists and stunts with the DL that would be fantastic. I have a lot of stuff that I would like to contribute, but I don't want to feel like I'm wasting my time.

[shttymcgee]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

I must not have made this clear. I'm referring to the Computer's defense against a human. As a human I can get into the look I want without a ton of difficulty, but I can't stop the computer from misaligning itself.



There are a lot of styles of "zone" blocking. I think they are using covered/uncovered rules. NOt the style I would have picked, but, atleast it's consistant.

The protections leave something to be desired.



I know what you mean on a few of the concepts (Levels is one that has some issues. Stick can also be tricky) but I've noticed that the route running attribute effects that as well. Like zone-blocking, things aren't perfect....but they do provide the right feel and a degree of simulation. Even if you have to fudge it a little to get it too work right.



Scrape and cutback have been alright. I think the new blocking kinda/sorta fixed LB play in some ways. The DB run support is brutal...and linebackers that still run away from the play at time (especially OLB in a zone).

While the actual "assignment" part of the blocking may be right (most NFL teams that run true zone, not pin and pull use covered-uncovered with a counting method), its implementation is bad. There is not nearly enough lateral movement occuring, especially after contact. Not to mention that there is no difference between inside and outside zone runs in the game other than aiming point.

Cutback is not okay. For example who should have cutback in a quarters defense? The backside safety. That never happens, and its not just in quarters defenses. While scrape responsibilities may appear okay, I don't really think that they are, everyone just tries to take an outside angle to the ball carrier.

[lasthour]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

These are the type of post I really really would like to see more of. If Madden wants defensive input from OS this would be the franchise changing. I hope this is one issue that gets addressed and I personally hope that manually moving players around to take advantage of AI players, handicaps the defense in order to achieve better playcalling strategy.

Now if we can get a new engine that would be the cherry on top.

[Sven Draconian]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

While the actual "assignment" part of the blocking may be right (most NFL teams that run true zone, not pin and pull use covered-uncovered with a counting method), its implementation is bad. There is not nearly enough lateral movement occuring, especially after contact. Not to mention that there is no difference between inside and outside zone runs in the game other than aiming point.

Gotcha. Yea, the movement on the line could use some work. They also need to add the cutblock on the backside which will help create the flow. But that is starting to get into nitpicking. You can run a solid zone game if you want one.

Cutback is not okay. For example who should have cutback in a quarters defense? The backside safety. That never happens, and its not just in quarters defenses. While scrape responsibilities may appear okay, I don't really think that they are, everyone just tries to take an outside angle to the ball carrier.

I was talking strictly about the LB play. I also said DB play in the run was brutal. So the backside safety and corner never being in position falls under that umbrella.

The LB's scrape over the top on the run. They even run through windows sometimes. Is it perfect? No, but it really is pretty good. They don't always fill right. They definately struggle against a pitch sweep (PSOLB in particular), but if you run stretch to the right, you get some solid LB play. If you run power left, the MLB does a solid job of going over the top.

[adembroski]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

^^^ The reason I love Sven's posts. He knows as much about the game as anyone on here (he and Lbz are probably pretty close, but the two of them blow everyone else away) and he is willing to point out what Madden does right. Makes for far more productive posts.

[Gordy748]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

De fence...

By and large, I'm happy with the defense playbooks. But what they need are option plays, i.e. where the offense has a HB option play, so should the Steelers to allow Polamalu to choose whether to blitz, deep zone, whatever. Note this is for the AI, not the player.

The next thing is blitzing. In NFL 11 it's obvious when the house is coming, and equally easy to short pass for a TD. The A.I. needs to be able to show-blitz, or press, or stand off, or do things that make you a little unsure what it is they're doing. As it is, the opposing Def Coordinator might as well be texting you their next play.

The third thing is learning from mistakes. If I'm constantly passing to an unmarked slot WR, then the AI should start marking him. Currently it does it, but not that well.

I find the alignment problem a real issue, too. Too often I find my defense leaving 2 WRs totally free and have to audible into man-align just to get somebody marking them.

[CreatineKasey]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Until they have different blocking logic available, stunts and twists won't matter unfortunately. It'd be cool to see several blocking "philosophies" available.. maybe unlockable according to your AWR level or something. Another cool philosophy would be alignments on D... does your D switch for strong-sides? Does it freeze and shift irregardless?

Alignment is a big problem in Madden, along with pursuit and responsibilities of DB's (like Sven mentioned). Speed is king because of pursuit. Good pursuit would go a long way. I still think defenses don't have enough explosiveness coming out of a neutral stance. Momentum is nice, but it doesn't mean they can't accelerate a bit faster.

The fact that interactions can't be lengthened leaves for a rigid game. You still can't drive blockers around. I thought pro-tak would allow for that. Defenders need to be able to continually interact with blockers in more of a free-flowing way. It'd help the interior game.

Double team pass blocking needs to be in the game, and the pass rush should be amped up to complement the change. Great pass rushers should be respected and accounted for.

There should be a way with strafe to get bigger and be more agile side to side. In football, you'd generally "get big" and strafe to make an open field tackle shuffling either way a ballcarrier cuts. I don't feel this is represented well in Madden, and it makes for open field tackling to be a bigger struggle than it should be.

I don't believe they have 2-gap scheme logic in the game yet either. DL in a 3-4 would engage and flow sideline to sideline with a run in a 2 gap scheme.. occupying their linemen as the play develops. Until they get longer animations in the game, it just can't happen.

Increasing the variability in pass blocking schemes and overall results would really open the game up. Right now, there isn't enough advantage in using confusion on defense to ruin pass blocking schemes. Twists, stunts, and delays just don't hold their weight in Madden like they do in real life. Overloads are more easily identified IRL. Also, something like blitzing a safety doesn't seem to hold the same merit in Madden because of the logic. In real life I think it works because it's just not expected or common. In Madden, all blitzers look the same and are treated the same, simplifying the game in the wrong way.

Good post, Sven. I remember your pass blocking posts from last year.

[havokeff]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

I must not have made this clear. I'm referring to the Computer's defense against a human. As a human I can get into the look I want without a ton of difficulty, but I can't stop the computer from misaligning itself.

Yup. Wasn't clear on that. That certainly makes a difference.

[rooney8]

Re: Fixing Defense (or, a Lesson in the Principle of Less is More).

Great post Sven.
Now pretend you're Ian and try and sell Alignment, Assignment, Continuity to marketing. So basically how will this make the game more fun and appeal to the masses and thus sell more copies?