Problems and Solutions

[TNT713]

There are two kinds of Madden players. Guys that find solutions and guys that find problems.

For the guys that find solutions: Madden players are exploring a football environment where the game is played with thumbs and fingers instead of arms and legs. I believe they enjoy Madden more because of the discovery. They face a myriad of challenges, and they cope through constant adjustment and tinkering as they push their Madden consciousness forward at their own pace.

For the guys that find problems: These players are exploring Madden as if it were a game played with arms and legs instead of thumbs and fingers. They may not enjoy the Madden experience because they are missing the discovery aspect. They face a myriad of challenges, and cope through constantly establishing the problems as an insurmountable obstacle in their consciousness, ending all progress.

As a stubborn yet passionate Madden fan, it pains me to see people who find tactical issues with Madden and giving up their search for tactical solutions. It pains me to see people so staunchly adamant about what is impossible in the Madden game, when I'm able to do what they say is impossible on the Madden game. It especially pains me to see knowledgeable football fans railing against Madden when they don't apply what they know about football in a useful way.

Football works on Madden. Indeed, it is impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of the strategy of football. By that same token, it is also impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of how to adapt that strategy to the electronic environment.

I've read several books about football, it's history, how to practice, strategy, etc... And I have yet to find one concept that I couldn't adapt to the Madden game. It may have taken effort to adapt the concept, but once learned the knowledge is mine forever. But I'm a solution seeker. I don't stop when problem seekers say "NAY!!!"

Finding solutions is fun. I don't know if complaining about problems is fun or not. I'm guessing not.

That all being said, anybody wanting to find a solution to a tactical Madden problem should have faith that a solution is out there. Furthermore, there are MANY people who want to help you find those solutions.

I implore you though, listen to the guys that find problems so you will know what to find solutions for. In my experience, the guys that complain the most are invaluable when it comes to finding a tactical solution BEFORE facing the tactic with the knowledge that anything people complain about is going to be used often...

Fortunately, when you have a solution what they complain about won't matter.

Later

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Problems and Solutions

There are two kinds of Madden players. Guys that find solutions and guys that find problems.

For the guys that find solutions: Madden players are exploring a football environment where the game is played with thumbs and fingers instead of arms and legs. I believe they enjoy Madden more because of the discovery. They face a myriad of challenges, and they cope through constant adjustment and tinkering as they push their Madden consciousness forward at their own pace.

For the guys that find problems: These players are exploring Madden as if it were a game played with arms and legs instead of thumbs and fingers. They may not enjoy the Madden experience because they are missing the discovery aspect. They face a myriad of challenges, and cope through constantly establishing the problems as an insurmountable obstacle in their consciousness, ending all progress.

As a stubborn yet passionate Madden fan, it pains me to see people who find tactical issues with Madden and giving up their search for tactical solutions. It pains me to see people so staunchly adamant about what is impossible in the Madden game, when I'm able to do what they say is impossible on the Madden game. It especially pains me to see knowledgeable football fans railing against Madden when they don't apply what they know about football in a useful way.

Football works on Madden. Indeed, it is impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of the strategy of football. By that same token, it is also impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of how to adapt that strategy to the electronic environment.

I've read several books about football, it's history, how to practice, strategy, etc... And I have yet to find one concept that I couldn't adapt to the Madden game. It may have taken effort to adapt the concept, but once learned the knowledge is mine forever. But I'm a solution seeker. I don't stop when problem seekers say "NAY!!!"

Finding solutions is fun. I don't know if complaining about problems is fun or not. I'm guessing not.

That all being said, anybody wanting to find a solution to a tactical Madden problem should have faith that a solution is out there. Furthermore, there are MANY people who want to help you find those solutions.

I implore you though, listen to the guys that find problems so you will know what to find solutions for. In my experience, the guys that complain the most are invaluable when it comes to finding a tactical solution BEFORE facing the tactic with the knowledge that anything people complain about is going to be used often...

Fortunately, when you have a solution what they complain about won't matter.

Later

It's not the consumer's job to find solutions.

[SA1NT401]

Re: Problems and Solutions

What we ask for IS 100% possible in Madden...Its the "Well they cant do it..." mentality of MOST consumers which lets the developers off the hook and release a disgrace to the game of football title.

What we want HAS been inn "other" titles YEARS ago and therefore is 100% possible now!

But i am finished with madden until A) exclusivity ends OR B) another company can pull of a great SIM game....Real players or not, i couldnt care less anymore about that aspect.

[Hooe]

Re: Problems and Solutions

Out of curiosity, TNT713, do you primarily play with a 4-3 or 3-4 defense?

[wheelman990]

Re: Problems and Solutions

There are two kinds of Madden players. Guys that find solutions and guys that find problems.

For the guys that find solutions: Madden players are exploring a football environment where the game is played with thumbs and fingers instead of arms and legs. I believe they enjoy Madden more because of the discovery. They face a myriad of challenges, and they cope through constant adjustment and tinkering as they push their Madden consciousness forward at their own pace.

For the guys that find problems: These players are exploring Madden as if it were a game played with arms and legs instead of thumbs and fingers. They may not enjoy the Madden experience because they are missing the discovery aspect. They face a myriad of challenges, and cope through constantly establishing the problems as an insurmountable obstacle in their consciousness, ending all progress.

As a stubborn yet passionate Madden fan, it pains me to see people who find tactical issues with Madden and giving up their search for tactical solutions. It pains me to see people so staunchly adamant about what is impossible in the Madden game, when I'm able to do what they say is impossible on the Madden game. It especially pains me to see knowledgeable football fans railing against Madden when they don't apply what they know about football in a useful way.

Football works on Madden. Indeed, it is impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of the strategy of football. By that same token, it is also impossible to be consistently successful at Madden without an understanding of how to adapt that strategy to the electronic environment.

I've read several books about football, it's history, how to practice, strategy, etc... And I have yet to find one concept that I couldn't adapt to the Madden game. It may have taken effort to adapt the concept, but once learned the knowledge is mine forever. But I'm a solution seeker. I don't stop when problem seekers say "NAY!!!"

Finding solutions is fun. I don't know if complaining about problems is fun or not. I'm guessing not.

That all being said, anybody wanting to find a solution to a tactical Madden problem should have faith that a solution is out there. Furthermore, there are MANY people who want to help you find those solutions.

I implore you though, listen to the guys that find problems so you will know what to find solutions for. In my experience, the guys that complain the most are invaluable when it comes to finding a tactical solution BEFORE facing the tactic with the knowledge that anything people complain about is going to be used often...

Fortunately, when you have a solution what they complain about won't matter.

Later

Sounds to me you want us to play with our eyes closed, and accept what we get. I'll pay $60 if it's earned, but I'm not going to throw it away.

[Jarodd21]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I kind of see it on both sides.. Yes I want alot of issues to be fixed on the game that will make the game much more better that alot of great posters on here speak on but like TNT says I do adjust to the product thats in front of me with sliders, strategy, schemes, Etc to make the game enjoyable for me..

[TreFacTor]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I am a first generation Madden player, my nephew is a second generation madden player, and my sons are third generation. I have passed the tradition of football and Madden to 2 other generations. Only I remain. My nephew and sons gave up on Madden due to it's micro transactions and lack of realism. When asked why they no longer like madden their responses echo those of the community.

Nephew (age 25 Team Vikings high school football): Madden 11 was the worst game (gameplay wise) on next generation consoles. The first game we played the combined score was almost 150. Minimal to no changes in franchise or AI. He also sited the extra content as being extraneous.

Son 1 (age 20 Team Saints high school football) States his lack of interest in Madden is due to the gimmicks every year. He reads all of the articles, waits for information only to see that over the last few games they remove things that worked in place of gimmicks that don't.

Son 2 (age 13 Team Eagles**subject to change..fair weather fan**) Really liked being able to play with dad and be able to compete because he was the low man on the ladder for years. Doesn't like watching the action. He feels that more times than most the play is decided before the snap of the ball. He surmised this from one game where Assante' Samuels was in coverage, the receiver slips at the line and then Samuels somehow slips as well allowing the receiver to get behind him for a TD. (yeah I won that game)

I have my own issues with the game, but as you can see there are more than 2 types of madden player. EA's mistake is trying to make it accessible to all while trying to remain faithful to the game of football and how the make this happen in game. We should be able to tell EA what we liked and didn't like, and not be segregated by whether or not we can back up our opinions with hard evidence or even offer solutions to fix what we see are issues. That's up to the Madden team, all we can do is give a thumbs up or a thumbs down, and either buy or not.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I'm with Jarodd, I see both sides of the argument. In case anyone's wondering, the impetus for this thread came from this one on stopping the HB angle/flat route:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...at-routes.html



I think there are a good many who see something going on with the game and chalk it up to faulty AI or a broken this or that, when the truth is, maybe we don't have a full understanding of how everything work strategically. Man coverage is one I see a lot. Everyone complains about how the middle is wide open in two man under -- well that's kinda how it's designed. The corners play outside leverage. If you want to better guard the middle of the field, you should be calling a Cover 1 where the corners play more to the inside.

I was in the camp of "man coverage is broken" until I had my eyes opened up in the Palo's http://www.operationsports.com/forum...dd-madden.html thread by shttymcgee and Sven. I didn't have full understanding of what each coverage was designed to do.

On the flipside, I can't jive with everything TNT is saying, because you can't apply every stragetic football nuance to Madden. I should be able to play my best pass rusher as a RE and my strongest end at LE. Can't do that in Madden. My best pass rusher will disappear at RE. If I've got a good running game going, then the secondary should at least pause when I play-fake. Not in Madden.

Both sides should find a middle ground. The problems in Madden can't be just glossed over and put on the user as not having the requisite knowledge. But on the flipside, just because you're having a problem with a particular aspect of the game doesn't mean something is broken. The kneejerk "EA needs to fix this" is probably what led to the unbalanced "out of the box" gameplay that was pre-patch Madden 11, and definitely led to NCAA 11 being neutered from what was a wonderfully realistic and challenging game.



And p.s. no, the HB Angle route is not impossible to stop.

[Jarodd21]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I'm with Jarodd, I see both sides of the argument. In case anyone's wondering, the impetus for this thread came from this one on stopping the HB angle/flat route:

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...at-routes.html



I think there are a good many who see something going on with the game and chalk it up to faulty AI or a broken this or that, when the truth is, maybe we don't have a full understanding of how everything work strategically. Man coverage is one I see a lot. Everyone complains about how the middle is wide open in two man under -- well that's kinda how it's designed. The corners play outside leverage. If you want to better guard the middle of the field, you should be calling a Cover 1 where the corners play more to the inside.

I was in the camp of "man coverage is broken" until I had my eyes opened up in the Palo's http://www.operationsports.com/forum...dd-madden.html thread by shttymcgee and Sven. I didn't have full understanding of what each coverage was designed to do.

On the flipside, I can't jive with everything TNT is saying, because you can't apply every stragetic football nuance to Madden. I should be able to play my best pass rusher as a RE and my strongest end at LE. Can't do that in Madden. My best pass rusher will disappear at RE. If I've got a good running game going, then the secondary should at least pause when I play-fake. Not in Madden.

Both sides should find a middle ground. The problems in Madden can't be just glossed over and put on the user as not having the requisite knowledge. But on the flipside, just because you're having a problem with a particular aspect of the game doesn't mean something is broken. The kneejerk "EA needs to fix this" is probably what led to the unbalanced "out of the box" gameplay that was pre-patch Madden 11, and definitely led to NCAA 11 being neutered from what was a wonderfully realistic and challenging game.



And p.s. no, the HB Angle route is not impossible to stop.

Great Post Senator..

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I find it ironic that this post comes from a guy who has never even tried another football game because he feels Madden is the best it gets. Sorry, but I see very little merit in the initial post.

The one thing I do agree with is that in a sim environment, I do see people misinterpret a football strategy with a corny strategy because they can't stop it. In my mind, I have a bigger problem with things that are a part of football that are just flat out absent from the game. It's been discussed way too much already so we don't need to re-hash.

[TNT713]

Re: Problems and Solutions

It's not the consumer's job to find solutions.

Actually... it is. The developer's job is to provide tools so consumer's can apply those tools in concert with their football knowledge to create their own tactical solutions to tactical problems.

EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade.

Indeed, it seems silly to think that problem minded players would bother using newer updated tools to solve their tactical problems when they aren't using the ones that have been around since Madden 99.

Is it EA's fault some people don't know where to go with the ball against a Cover 4? Is it EA's fault some people have trouble running against a 3-4 front?

Don't get me wrong, I can be as critical as anyone about the Madden product - and still play it religiously. I cannot, however assign EA the player's responsibility. Personally, I'm more critical of players than I am of EA because I've seen the tool chest expand in recent years. I've also seen a marked improvement in my ability to use of the tools EA has provided to simulate some good football against all types of player antics...

But I study football so I'll know what to do when I play Madden. As a student of NFL football strategies - I find ways to adapt those real world concepts to the Madden world all the time. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well. I also think Madden is worth playing. Maybe that's the difference...

Later

[TNT713]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I find it ironic that this post comes from a guy who has never even tried another football game because he feels Madden is the best it gets.

Taz,

I have played several other football games on various platforms... Just none recently. I came to the conclusion around 2000 or so that Madden was the best game because of how I feel when I play it.

For me, no game Earth matches the feeling I get from playing Madden well, nor the depths of playing it poorly. I actually care if I win or lose a Madden game.

So when I hated playing Madden because of QB Vision, I didn't just stop playing Madden. I didn't play ANY video games at all.

Nothing against video games, football or otherwise - I just don't care enough about them to play. Before Madden went online I'd literally buy games but never play them - because I didn't care enough to put the disk on the tray and press a button.

I have had dreams about playing Madden. Nothing against other football games, but I'm pretty sure I'm not going to dream about them. So I play Madden.

That said, I'm a fan of sharing any lessons I've learned that will help someone else enjoy playing Madden. The technique and tactical solutions are out there.

Later

[RGiles36]

Re: Problems and Solutions

I haven't read this thread thorougly, but as I've said, it's good to see somebody who truly enjoys Madden. I don't always agree with TNT, but he sticks to his guns and unapologetically loves Madden. It's good to read that instead of how far the game is behind all of the time.

[TNT713]

Re: Problems and Solutions

Out of curiosity, TNT713, do you primarily play with a 4-3 or 3-4 defense?

I primarily play with the Panthers in a 4-3 defense.

But I have the Cardinals in a league so I have to use a 3-4 with them. They are HORRIBLE in the 4-3 alignment.

Later

[LiquorLogic]

Re: Problems and Solutions

Actually... it is. The developer's job is to provide tools so consumer's can apply those tools in concert with their football knowledge to create their own tactical solutions to tactical problems.

EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade.

Indeed, it seems silly to think that problem minded players would bother using newer updated tools to solve their tactical problems when they aren't using the ones that have been around since Madden 99.

Is it EA's fault some people don't know where to go with the ball against a Cover 4? Is it EA's fault some people have trouble running against a 3-4 front?

Don't get me wrong, I can be as critical as anyone about the Madden product - and still play it religiously. I cannot, however assign EA the player's responsibility. Personally, I'm more critical of players than I am of EA because I've seen the tool chest expand in recent years. I've also seen a marked improvement in my ability to use of the tools EA has provided to simulate some good football against all types of player antics...

But I study football so I'll know what to do when I play Madden. As a student of NFL football strategies - I find ways to adapt those real world concepts to the Madden world all the time. I think anything worth doing is worth doing well. I also think Madden is worth playing. Maybe that's the difference...

Later

Umm...no it's not. It's not our responsibility to make the AI play the way it's supposed to play, and the tools that we've been given, up to this point, are questionable at best.

This has nothing to do with football strategy. Many of Madden's problems start with AI, and the defense not playing coverages properly, or the offensive line making ridiculous decisions.

The fundamentals have been done correctly, just not in Madden, and what are we, the consumers, supposed to about the impact ( or lack there of) of weight on the game ? What about the ratings, and the fact that, other than speed, they're virtually meaningless ?

I realize that there are a lot of people that complain that certain routes are open all the time without the knowing what coverages work best against those routes, but that doesn't mean that EA should change the game to suit those players. A simple tutorial, which would take less work, than tuning a certain coverage to play unrealistically to suit uninformed gamers.

There are no solutions, that gamers can create, for the core problems in the game. If there were, with all the sliders sets out there, don't you think all of those problems would've been solved by now ?

EA isn't responsible for our knowledge of football nor how well we apply the tools via tactics and technique. Yet, they have been steadily improving the tools for over a decade.

How has EA steadily been improving the tools, when we have less than we did over half a decade ago. Come on man! It wasn't until Madden 10 that we got back individual defensive assignments. Madden 08 had weapons; one of which was the shutdown corner. The problem was that, at that time, we didn't have individual defensive assignments. Now how asinine is that ? You have a shut down corner, but you can't match him up against your opponent's best WR ? We used to be able to shade wrs in or out, use man-lock to disguise coverages, and individually bump one receiver and play off the other one. We can't do any of that now, and why in the world can't we have formation substitutions in the pause menu ?

Just look at gameflow which was M11's greatest feature ? Defensively, Gameflow didn't account for down and distance. How on earth can you properly formulate a defensive gameplan without considering down and distance ?