Fix pancakes stats or remove them

[booker21]

Hope the OL get some love on madden 2012.

One thing they never got right where OL stats.
They added Pancakes but they never worked.
Or they were too many or none.

They never where able to match In game pancakes stats with sim stats.

Hope they fix this, this year or just removed the pancakes and base progression from Offense yds and Sacks allowed.

[mjhyankees]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Agreed...never cared about pancakes in real life. It's like big hits...they may be fun to look at but not much of an indicator of player ability. I'll take the LB that wraps up and never misses a tackle on my team...you can have the guy that goes for the bone jarring hit but whiffs at times and allows big plays.
Pancakes are for breakfast with butter and syrup. Blocks made and sustained or sacks allowed are the true judge of a lineman's ability.

[TheDelta]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Blocks made and sustained or sacks allowed are the true judge of a lineman's ability.

This. And somehow I'm pretty sure that the game has some "undocumented" stats about Olinemen and evaluating their perfomance. Because I got a Guard that's in the running for best OL after week 13 and he has exactly 0 pancakes and 2 sacks allowed, so there must be some other stats by which the game measures him.

[ABR173rd]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

They had it working years ago and then this new generation it just got messed up. The issue I have is I believe the pancake attribute is tied to players progression. So even though I have a bunch of young 80-90 overall O-linmen they never progress like they should because user played game's stats for pancakes is always lower compared to the rest of the league....

[booker21]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

They had it working years ago and then this new generation it just got messed up. The issue I have is I believe the pancake attribute is tied to players progression. So even though I have a bunch of young 80-90 overall O-linmen they never progress like they should because user played game's stats for pancakes is always lower compared to the rest of the league....

exactly.
Why keep a stat that doesn´t work?
Or you fix it or you removed it and base your progression in other stats that work.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

I was diggin' around the other day looking for some d-line stuff and I found this old thread on madden-school.com where someone posted a breakdown from one of the developers on what every rating does.

- Impact Blocking: Offensive rating on how well blockers can pancake (or block normally) when in the open field - mainly special teams, turnover returns, etc

I can't count the number of times I've rolled teams up in the running game then looked at the stats and see my WR, or TE with 2 pancake blocks a piece, but none from my linemen. But going by this, it looks like it is working as it was designed.

Here's the rest for anyone interested. http://www.madden-school.com/forum/m...-advice-3.html

- Pass Block Strength: Replacement for general "Pass Block" rating when choosing to win or lose while pass blocking. PB Strength determines how well the player performs when the defender is performing power moves against him.*

- Pass Block Footwork: Replacement for general "Pass Block" rating when choosing to win or lose while pass blocking. PB Footwork determines how well the player performs when the defender is performing finesse moves against him. Scales the speed of initial moves at the snap, as well as the distance of kickout pass block initial moves.*

- Run Block Strength: Replacement for general "Run Block" rating when choosing to win or lose while run blocking. RB Strength determines how well they can succeed in locking up a defender while run blocking.*

- Run Block Footwork: Replacement for general "Run Block" rating when choosing to win or lose while run blocking. RB Footwork determines how well they can succeed in pushing a defender while run blocking. Also scales the speed of initial moves.*

- Block Shedding: Defensive rating on how well defenders can "shed" blocks when in the open field (i.e. in pursuit of the ballcarrier)

- Impact Blocking: Offensive rating on how well blockers can pancake (or block normally) when in the open field - mainly special teams, turnover returns, etc
end paste

Breakdown,
Here i've added a few other things I've learned from some of the posts by Madden Game developers.

RBF and RBS
To me it seems that run block footwork would be the most important attribute in the run game as this is the ability to find your block, so primary concern is to find your block as the play may already be past the defender when he breaks that block, but of course blocks break down pretty quickly especially against good defenders so run block strength is also important. These two attributes come in play mostly at the line of scrimmage. RBF and RBS play primarily against Power Moves and Block Shedding in the run game.

PBF and PBS
These two attributes play a little differently as noted in the paste above, Pass Block Footwork plays against Finnesse moves such as the spin move and the swim move. And Pass Block Strength plays against Power Moves such as the bull rush or chuck. And they must also compete against the Block Shedding attribute of the rusher. So for me again I would determine that Footwork is more important as when I am pass rushing I tend to use Finnese moves to avoid blockers. Again these attributes are primarily used on the Line of Scrimmage.

Impact Blocking is the ability to block in the open field, so this combined with Run Block Footwork and Awareness is important for Pulling Guards, Fullbacks and Tight Ends, as they will be lead blockers beyond the Line of Scrimmage. This is why in the stat sheet you sometimes see Fullbacks, and Tight Ends with Pancakes, but the linemen also do get off the LOS, and may make some pancake blocks. Of course Impact Blocking will not work unless you can find a block in the open field which is why Awareness and Footwork are also important.

[booker21]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

I was diggin' around the other day looking for some d-line stuff and I found this old thread on madden-school.com where someone posted a breakdown from one of the developers on what every rating does.

- Impact Blocking: Offensive rating on how well blockers can pancake (or block normally) when in the open field - mainly special teams, turnover returns, etc

I can't count the number of times I've rolled teams up in the running game then looked at the stats and see my WR, or TE with 2 pancake blocks a piece, but none from my linemen. But going by this, it looks like it is working as it was designed.

Here's the rest for anyone interested. http://www.madden-school.com/forum/m...-advice-3.html

let me clear one thing.

I don´t care about how many pancakes my OL has or don´t have.

What i do care is that in games match Sim games.

So if my OL gets only 1 o 2 pancakes... or my WR get some pancackes every once in a while, it´s ok... BUT.. i expect the same for the sim game engines and this doesn´t work.

So no, it´s not working as designed. Something is broken. or sims game stats or in game stats. take your pick.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Well, I don't know, I think it's like The Delta said, there has to be some other "undocumented" gage to measure a linemen. I never have guys even close to the top 10 in pancakes, but they seem to progress fine, and last year in my franchise, I put my entire o-line in the Pro Bowl and had my Center as linemen of the year. I had the #1 rushing attack in the league, but not a one of my linemen had double-digit pancakes.

On the strength of that -- my linemens' progress not being hindered by a lack of of pancakes, as in year's past -- everything seems okay to me, but if it's the stats themselves that are bothering you then, okay, they probably should be leveled out more.

[xblake16x]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Like a online football sim site i participate in... there is a run-block grade.

It goes from 0-10 linearly. I think it is, a -2.5 yard rush is a 0, while a +2.5 yard gain is a 10. It calculates the two blocking linemen, who's hole the play was designed for. Its a good way to evaluate linemen, in my opinion.

[thecarver]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Hope the OL get some love on madden 2012.

One thing they never got right where OL stats.
They added Pancakes but they never worked.
Or they were too many or none.

They never where able to match In game pancakes stats with sim stats.

Hope they fix this, this year or just removed the pancakes and base progression from Offense yds and Sacks allowed.

I agree. Some people say O-line ratings matters while others say it doesn't. I believe it does tho.

[maademperor]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

This. And somehow I'm pretty sure that the game has some "undocumented" stats about Olinemen and evaluating their perfomance. Because I got a Guard that's in the running for best OL after week 13 and he has exactly 0 pancakes and 2 sacks allowed, so there must be some other stats by which the game measures him.

I see this too, almost every year I send almost my whole oline to the pro bowl with 0-5 pancakes apiece but I assume its because they allow so few sacks compared to the other starting linmen in the league.

same thing for my full back. I let him carry the ball maybe 20 times a season on short yardage and he gets maybe 4-6 TDs and he is always in the pro bowl for that alone apparently

[TheDelta]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Oh yes I hate that. An FBs performance is evaluated solely on Carries and Catches, so while I got my FB in the game almost 2/3 of the time and he is probably the best lead blocker in the league, he never gets any recognition and never really advances in skill because I don't give him the ball very often.

[Jarodd21]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

I never really paid attention to the pancake stats but for some reason I always get about 2-4 of my Olineman in the pro bowl every year.. I always have two 1000 yard rushers and I don't get sacked alot so maybe that helps too..

[TheDelta]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Yes I think rushing stats somehow count into the Oline's performance, as soon as I get 2-3 games with amazing rushing stats, my Oline always moves up in the rankings.

I just don't understand why they can't do the same for FBs...

[Jarodd21]

Re: Fix pancakes stats or remove them

Yes I think rushing stats somehow count into the Oline's performance, as soon as I get 2-3 games with amazing rushing stats, my Oline always moves up in the rankings.

I just don't understand why they can't do the same for FBs...

Yea FB stats should be based off what your RB does. Not catches and Carries..