Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

[RogueHominid]

The E3 videos have showcased lots of the innovations and improvements that the development team has touted for M12. I'm especially interested in improvements to zone coverage, as last year's game more or less rendered zone defense impotent as a base strategy.

I can tell from some of the videos that flats have received more attention (though there are still quick snap passes to the flats that will be exploitable). What I haven't seen is much evidence that the middle of the field has been toughened up in zone defenses. It's so easy to throw all slants, or TE posts, or slot posts against zone coverage in Madden, and I think this hurts the game a lot. It's one of the reasons 3rd and 15 or the 2 minute offense vs. zone are not intimidating situations for the offense.

Is there good evidence from the videos you've seen that those routes are tougher to complete now? Is there evidence to the contrary?

[TheDelta]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

I haven't seen much, but I won't get my hopes up before I can see it myself. The problem is that zone coverage is all about anticipation and teamwork, which is very hard to simulate in a game, compared to man coverage, which works on some very simple principles.

[WFColonel56]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

well the ncaa demo comes out tomorrow so u can see first hand how the zones react...should react the same in M12

[RayAllen20]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

The E3 videos have showcased lots of the innovations and improvements that the development team has touted for M12. I'm especially interested in improvements to zone coverage, as last year's game more or less rendered zone defense impotent as a base strategy.

I can tell from some of the videos that flats have received more attention (though there are still quick snap passes to the flats that will be exploitable). What I haven't seen is much evidence that the middle of the field has been toughened up in zone defenses. It's so easy to throw all slants, or TE posts, or slot posts against zone coverage in Madden, and I think this hurts the game a lot. It's one of the reasons 3rd and 15 or the 2 minute offense vs. zone are not intimidating situations for the offense.

Is there good evidence from the videos you've seen that those routes are tougher to complete now? Is there evidence to the contrary?

while it may not be zone defense...watch the green bay vs. tampa bay video
of nick collins closing in on an easy pass over the middle and hitting the receiver so he can't catch it. I thought it showed how pass defense would be a lot better this year.

[LBzrule]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

Well you have to take into account what zones are being ran though. Ball trajectory IMO is still going to be an issue. They have not said much about it at all and from what I could see from the E3 videos even when a WR is behind a linebacker about 6-10 yards the ball does not move on a trajectory over the defender. It still goes directly at the defender.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

The play of Nick Collins did stand out to me when I watched that video. It looks like having a S on the roster with aggressive tendencies will have a noticeable impact on passes over the middle.

Specific zone calls and ball trajectory are definitely relevant. Seeing those linebackers jump to knock down passes they have no business getting to isn't the answer. But it's also really hard to find coverage calls that take those 3rd and long and 2 minute passes straight down the middle of the field away. I don't think the robber assignments cover the proper area of the field, and I don't think the LBs get proper depth on their drops either, which is a contributing factor. It's like they have the spacing between the backers and the secondary all wrong and this is what kills zone defense.

Perhaps there are other clips I've missed that showcase better responses to passes over the middle? I'm just really hoping this area is encompassed within the general improvements to zone D.

[Jr.]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

The play of Nick Collins did stand out to me when I watched that video. It looks like having a S on the roster with aggressive tendencies will have a noticeable impact on passes over the middle.

Specific zone calls and ball trajectory are definitely relevant. Seeing those linebackers jump to knock down passes they have no business getting to isn't the answer. But it's also really hard to find coverage calls that take those 3rd and long and 2 minute passes straight down the middle of the field away. I don't think the robber assignments cover the proper area of the field, and I don't think the LBs get proper depth on their drops either, which is a contributing factor. It's like they have the spacing between the backers and the secondary all wrong and this is what kills zone defense.

Perhaps there are other clips I've missed that showcase better responses to passes over the middle? I'm just really hoping this area is encompassed within the general improvements to zone D.

Those are good points and I think your concern is valid. I haven't watched all of the videos posted, but it does still seem the deep middle is open more often than not. I've always controlled a safety to try to combat this but I still get burned from time to time. Unfortunately, it's likely that we'll all have to wait until NCAA 12 is released before we know for sure

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

This is something I am very interested in seeing. It gets tiring to see some of the ridiculous 3rd and 20 plays that get converted. I remember in my madden league I was in a rut where I was giving up 3rd down conversions at 55%. However, I was also converting them at 67%. I remember how easy it was to get a first down on 3rd and 20. I should be able to convert that maybe once out of 50 times. The middle of the field is ridiculously easy to kill against zones. Let's hope they fixed it.

[TWOSILK]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

will madden have the strategy options that ncaa has where you can set your team zone strategy and things like aggressive tackling (more fumbles,but more broken tackles,) i think that was genius where on 3rd and long you can set your zone depths deeper but on third and short you could shorten them up, will this make it to madden this year??

[HeavyHitter55]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

will madden have the strategy options that ncaa has where you can set your team zone strategy and things like aggressive tackling (more fumbles,but more broken tackles,) i think that was genius where on 3rd and long you can set your zone depths deeper but on third and short you could shorten them up, will this make it to madden this year??

It pains me to say that I'm 99% sure the answer is no. Of all the strategy in football, Madden hasn't (yet) shared this with NCAA. SMH

[Only1LT]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

What you need to understand also OP, is that it is extremely hard to play defense in real life.

There are holes in coverages all over the field. Pass defense comes down more to disguising the coverage and not allowing the QB to have time to figure out where the holes are, as opposed to there being no holes.

I'm not saying that Madden has done a good job of simulating zone to this point, or that 12 will do any better, I'm just saying that people need to understand that playing D is extremely hard. I can't emphasize this enough.

A fix to the way the line play interacts, thereby affecting the user's ability to read the defense, a change to the way that defense is called, ie tiered playcalling, and finally, a change in the way that we view the action on the field, ie get rid of skycam, will go much further in providing a more realistic balance of offense vs defense, than any zone coverage "fix" Tiburon could ever come up with.

[Only1LT]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

Well you have to take into account what zones are being ran though. Ball trajectory IMO is still going to be an issue. They have not said much about it at all and from what I could see from the E3 videos even when a WR is behind a linebacker about 6-10 yards the ball does not move on a trajectory over the defender. It still goes directly at the defender.

Ball trajectory, if the NCAA demo is indicative of the final products for either title, is still a HUGE issue. In my limited time with the demo, I've already witnessed several under throws, that resulted in INTs that had no business being under thrown.

Even using Precision Passing has little effect as I will intentionally try to lead the pass much further up the field than necessary, yet it still throws it to a point that isn't close to optimal, even with the defender beaten BADLY.

I would rather have an overthrow and not connect than what we have now. Lead passing on these titles is nothing short of atrocious.

[RogueHominid]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

What you need to understand also OP, is that it is extremely hard to play defense in real life.

There are holes in coverages all over the field. Pass defense comes down more to disguising the coverage and not allowing the QB to have time to figure out where the holes are, as opposed to there being no holes.

I'm not saying that Madden has done a good job of simulating zone to this point, or that 12 will do any better, I'm just saying that people need to understand that playing D is extremely hard. I can't emphasize this enough.

A fix to the way the line play interacts, thereby affecting the user's ability to read the defense, a change to the way that defense is called, ie tiered playcalling, and finally, a change in the way that we view the action on the field, ie get rid of skycam, will go much further in providing a more realistic balance of offense vs defense, than any zone coverage "fix" Tiburon could ever come up with.

LMFAO. Thanks for condescending. I'm plenty aware of the relative strengths and weaknesses of particular coverage calls and the kinds of personnel you need to run given coverages well.

We've all played the long enough to know that passing deep over the middle of the field, particularly to the slot receiver and the tight end, is shockingly easy to do in Madden compared to real life. This is because the spacing of the zones covered by the backers and the secondary is off, because some of the zones don't cover the proper part of the field for the call, and because zone defenders generally do not play the route combinations being presented to them.

Sure, players need to know what coverages do, but that knowledge doesn't mean anything unless the zones do what they're supposed to do in the game.
It was a long-standing joke in the league I used to run that 3rd and 15 was much easier to convert than 3rd and 3. That's not 'cause we were all collectively dumb; it's 'cause zone's didn't work like they should.

To the point of the thread, I think the best evidence I've seen is the GB video. The NCAA retail copy should also be a good tell, and that's coming soon.

[Only1LT]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

LMFAO. Thanks for condescending. I'm plenty aware of the relative strengths and weaknesses of particular coverage calls and the kinds of personnel you need to run given coverages well.

We've all played the long enough to know that passing deep over the middle of the field, particularly to the slot receiver and the tight end, is shockingly easy to do in Madden compared to real life. This is because the spacing of the zones covered by the backers and the secondary is off, because some of the zones don't cover the proper part of the field for the call, and because zone defenders generally do not play the route combinations being presented to them.

Sure, players need to know what coverages do, but that knowledge doesn't mean anything unless the zones do what they're supposed to do in the game.
It was a long-standing joke in the league I used to run that 3rd and 15 was much easier to convert than 3rd and 3. That's not 'cause we were all collectively dumb; it's 'cause zone's didn't work like they should.

To the point of the thread, I think the best evidence I've seen is the GB video. The NCAA retail copy should also be a good tell, and that's coming soon.

It wasn't meant to be condescending. At all. I'm sorry if it came across that way.

All I was saying is that the issues with the holes in the zone are much deeper than just the zone defenders not defending their zone properly. We have to be careful with what we think of as being broken.

There are holes all over the field, especially in the middle in real life too. The reason why they aren't exploited with the same frequency that they are in Madden is because of many other factors that Madden doesn't replicate, not because the zone d is so rock solid in the pros.

I don't want Tiburon to focus on artificial "fixes" to combat what is poor coverage a lot of times, to be sure, but sometimes isn't, but is perceived to be. I would rather that they replicate other realistic elements in the game instead of overcompensating by making the zone coverage unrealistically strong, which in my opinion, is how Tiburon usually tends to "fix" things.

It is extremely hard to play defense and it should be in the game likewise. My saying that wasn't to be condescending, it was to remind those who might think that it should be easier than it is. I don't know if you fall in that category or not, but there are those that think that they are better at defense than they really are and if they aren't shutting people down, then something has to be wrong.

Again, I'm not saying that zone coverage has worked properly in the past, or that it will in 12 either, just that it is extremely hard for any of us to really gauge how bad the zone D really is or isn't, when there are so many things that are not represented properly in the game, that it could be skewing things that would not otherwise be so exploitable. So many things that a QB in real life has to worry about that we, as the user QB, do not. If Peyton Manning could drop back 30yds without fear of being sacked and still see all of his receivers, because he has a coordinator's view, and only hit a button to throw a perfect pass, even if his back was to the receiver, than I'm sure he'd exploit the hell out of just about any defense as well. Whether that D was executing the zone D propely or not, I think it's safe to ssay he'd still shred it quite often.

That's what I was really trying to get at. The risk/reward of Offense isn't representated well in this game. It's mostly reward. Very little risk. I think that is what should really be addressed.

Just be careful. I've seen Tiburon "fix" things. Where do you think psychic DBs and superman LBs came from?

I'm tired of "fixes." More realism and less "fixing" please. My $.02.

[Joe Strange]

Re: Evidence of Improved Zone Coverage Over the Middle in M12

I have to agree whole-heartedly with Only1LT. We are living in the golden era of offense. Teams employ more spread concepts and the numbers have sky rocketed. And he hit the nail on the head. There are plenty of issues that play into the passing game being overpowered. It's easy to sit here and say zone is broken, but:

1. we can see the entire field, real QB's cannot
2. the passes being thrown are waaaay overpowered
3. you very rarely ever feel pressured in the pocket

So yes, the zone schemes in the game are way too vanilla, and the AI of the defenders is awful. But if you give any real QB a birds eye view of the field, a better arm than Dan Marino, and all the time in the world to sit in the pocket and scan the defense, he's going to carve you to pieces, no matter how good your secondary is. Just watch Aaron Rodgers