Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

[justud]

this is a great idea. http://spgmg.blogspot.com/2011/11/sh...irror-nfl.html

i was torn at first but then i remembered that nba 2k's realistic FG percentages are what make it a truly great game.

[KBLover]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

Fair Play was a bad idea.

The GAME MECHANICS themselves should make 4th & Whatever succeed as much as the in real life. If I can cheese something or exploit something and make 4th & 10 every time, then THAT is the problem, not that I can go for it whenever.

In the real game, those risks are so high that they are never chosen unless in desperation mode. Maybe on 4th & short on the fringe of FG range, but too hard to get a punt off that's worth kicking (like on the plus-38 or something) you'll see a fake or an outright go for it. That's cool. Why should Fair Play or something similar take that out?

To me, Fair Play was just laziness on the developers part. Instead of tightening up the gameplay, they made up an arbitrary set of rules and decided when you can go for it and all that.

I don't like the idea of automatic anything. The game play should put the risks as they are. The default sliders should create the FG%. They need to come up with a kicking system to where you can actually miss a FG with any regularity, especially from 40+ yds and use that as the default at 50 FG Power, 50 FG Acc sliders and allow game hosts to use their own sliders so if people want something different, they can host a game or join one they like.

I think having the 4th downs just automatically do whatever is just a lazy way out. Fix the mechanics, fix the situations the player AI can't deal with, have the game play replicate the risks of real life situations and give quitters an auto-loss (like resigning/quitting in an RTS creates a loss for the quitter) and that should do a lot without introducing anything like Fair Play and EA deciding my football strategy for me.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

I feel what KB is saying about Fair play just being a shortcut and I don't like gamers restricted from doing whatever they want. That said, I also agree with the blog about 4th down needing more real life risk/reward representation in Madden from the pressure of the situation causing more mental mistakes in Madden. Madden currently does a poor job, imo, of representing various NFL parameters, like penalties, pressure, momentum, injuries, physical limitations, etc, in a manner that regulates gameplay.

For example, surprise onside kick being limited to how many times it can be done a game, is not necessary if there was adaptive AI. Once the "surprise" is gone, it's just someone deciding to keep giving their opponent the football in great field position. Same thing with 4th down if they make it a situation where it's high pressure with high risk for mental mistakes and the defensive AI is aware of the first down markers to limit the success in a NFL realistic manner.

Also I would like for Ranked games online to matter more. Like having team injuries/DPP carry over for 24 hrs, temporary bans for quitters and an ignore/block from playing feature. Things like this wouldn't prevent gamers from tomfoolery but the consequences would deter it.

[TNT713]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

Football = 4 downs to reach the line of gain... Anything less is not football. Lets be clear. Football strategy is all about using game situations to make decisions.

I hated Fair Play. I called it FAIRY PLAY. I liked how the writer of this article mentioned that Fair Play was taken out after people complained about it without mentioning that it was added because people complained.

I'm 100% against the CPU intervening on 4th down with an arbitrary percentage that determines the result. Madden is an interactive entertainment - INTERACT.

I love how the same people who want the lynch the AI would also lobby for more AI intervention. Of course if they were interacting and PLAYING the game instead of watching the CPU play it, they wouldn't need any more intervention from the same AI they consider faulty.

I say we leave the 1v1 online experience more about the 1v1... Tell thse clowns that keep getting burned on 4th and a mile to make better decisions and PLAY SOME FRIGGIN' DEFENSE.

Begging for EA to re-add something they took out and shouldn't ever have been part of the game anyway is fruitless.

Later

[justud]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

"Also I would like for Ranked games online to matter more. Like having team injuries/DPP carry over for 24 hrs, temporary bans for quitters and an ignore/block from playing feature. Things like this wouldn't prevent gamers from tomfoolery but the consequences would deter it."

novel idea man.

[PGaither84]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

I am in favor of computer controlled Field Goals as an option for online play, not 4th down percentage. The Field Goal mini game is silly and too easy. Lag is about the only thing that messes it up, otherwise it is like 98% automatic or better.

Computer controlled FGs should not be on by default, but it should be an option for these online communities EA made for us.

[burger13]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

They already had this in a previous Madden....I don't recall which one, but I remember seeing interviews with John Madden and him discussing it, talking about how the pressure of these situations was higher and how things wouldn't come as easily when trying to go for it on 4th down.

As for Fair Play....it should 100% be there as an option.

I completely disagree that it is just lazy programmers....because even if they got everything else perfect, you would still have the gamers who would do stupid crap like go for it on 4th and long every time then when they miss on it enough times, just quit the game. Put in a Fair Play OPTION when selecting a matchup, and I likely don't have to ever deal with those people. Everybody wins!

[TNT713]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

I completely disagree that it is just lazy programmers....

Same here... Programming Fair Play required some time and effort because of all the possible situations in which a 4th down attempt might have been warranted. People that suggest EA is lazy aren't really aware of the work that goes into programming. TONS!!!

That said, Fair Play should be available for communities that want it - but not for ranked games.

Later

[KBLover]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

Same here... Programming Fair Play required some time and effort because of all the possible situations in which a 4th down attempt might have been warranted. People that suggest EA is lazy aren't really aware of the work that goes into programming. TONS!!!

Meh.

I bet it's easier to implement a general rule set than it is to determine why exactly animation X = 100% success or whatever else.

You can implement a rule set with a bunch of if/case statements. Not that hard...and considering that's what Fair Play was...

Compare that to changing an animation, the play resolution behind it, etc...

So, yeah, I do think they took the easy (easier, whatever) way out instead of tightening up the game play to just avoid the situation all together by preventing it from happening.

Instead of solving the problem, they sidestepped it by inventing a rule set that does not exist.

[oneamongthefence]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

The CPU should be more adept to swapping out players for certain situations ie run stuffers on 4th and short, all the speed guys on 4th and long. Ideally a system where you can set a depth chart for certain situations. Works a lot like gameplanning but you also have personnel groupings for it.

[scoonie05]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

Cry me a river.....

[justud]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

always been a big fan of that FG system mentioned earlier. the one where hitting a FG is alot like shooting a jump-shot in nba 2k. you pull back on the stick (or whatever control you're using) and you hit or miss based on the skill of your kicker and the situation. this would add tons more realism and a pressure-aspect to kicking FGS.

as alluded to earlier, right now the system has been dumbed-down to the point where you have to try to miss.

[TNT713]

Re: Should Madden's 4th Down % mirror the NFL's?

always been a big fan of that FG system mentioned earlier. the one where hitting a FG is alot like shooting a jump-shot in nba 2k. you pull back on the stick (or whatever control you're using) and you hit or miss based on the skill of your kicker and the situation. this would add tons more realism and a pressure-aspect to kicking FGS.

as alluded to earlier, right now the system has been dumbed-down to the point where you have to try to miss.

I've always disliked the idea of making kicking a random gimmie...

In the NFL there is a skilled long snapper, a skilled holder, and a skilled kicker that must perform their jobs precisely to kick FG/XP. I'd like that 'skill' based factor to be represented in Madden...

Is kicking easy in Madden? maybe. But the play clock stoppage creates a kick/block mini-game online makes kicking challenging (when both players are good at it). Get two guys that threaten every attempt and there will be some missed kicks due to the PRESSURE of the situation.

Please... No automatic kicking of any type EVER. Those plays should be skill based just like the others.

Later