Why do rating never matter

[jwhite1347]

It seems every year this is the case. So did the standard experiment. Changed all ratings on an offensive line to 5. This results in entire ol rated a 12 overall.

Then proceeded to sim and play several games and statistically compare to control set (OL with average rating of 85). And yep, effectively no difference.

So an entire OL rated 12 will be just as effective as any other rated OL.

Oh well.

[btvs]

Re: Why do rating never matter

Not with my A.I settings. If I did that I would get sacked every play.

[jwhite1347]

Re: Why do rating never matter

Settings are just modifiers. My testing was done on default all pro. In fact you can put in kickers on OL and watch em hold their own.

But again settings and their effect are independent of this. Knock yourself out and make one side play like 99's versus anyone. If you jack up one side or the other via settings that's great but isn't relevant to the core ratings and their effect.

[Bumi]

Re: Why do rating never matter

Does this apply to QB's as well? Because I've seen Aaron Rodgers consistently make terrible throws. Consistently.


Don't think it applies to RB's.

[KBLover]

Re: Why do rating never matter

Does this apply to QB's as well? Because I've seen Aaron Rodgers consistently make terrible throws. Consistently.


Don't think it applies to RB's.

I know it doesn't apply to QBs when I'm using them. I feel a BIG difference between, say Rodgers and Josh Johnson.

I disagree it applies to OL as well. My LT was so terrible I got rid of him and drafted a new one and the new kid is kicking butt. Even getting pancakes and not giving up sacks. The old LT was a holding call waiting to happen as well.

Pretty much got a whole new line, and running is back to being solid. Last season, I was wondering if my sliders were broken because I couldn't run for squat. Wasn't the sliders - it was the players heh Got a couple new OL kids and signed a good vet - now back up to 4.3-4.5 y/c with Blount and the passing game is better since Freeman isn't running for dear life every snap.

I would definitely agree it doesn't apply to HB - definitely differences there. Same for WR/TE as well as CBs and LBs.

[KBLover]

Re: Why do rating never matter

Settings are just modifiers. My testing was done on default all pro. In fact you can put in kickers on OL and watch em hold their own.

But again settings and their effect are independent of this. Knock yourself out and make one side play like 99's versus anyone. If you jack up one side or the other via settings that's great but isn't relevant to the core ratings and their effect.

It is if the effect of the settings is impacting the differences of the ratings.

Try playing with Rodgers with QB Acc at 0 and some scrub at 0 - probably won't feel any different because the settings are overcoming the ratings. Same idea on the other end - at 100, every QB is probably laser accurate.

If you put Run and Pass block to 0 and block shedding at 100, do the K and P still hold up? Does a legit line hold up better? Things like that will also help discover the impact of ratings.

[TheDelta]

Re: Why do rating never matter

I disagree it applies to OL as well. My LT was so terrible I got rid of him and drafted a new one and the new kid is kicking butt. Even getting pancakes and not giving up sacks. The old LT was a holding call waiting to happen as well.

I agree to some extent. Different players behave differently on the line, I get the feeling that Awareness plays a much bigger role than many know about, I often see a rookie simply miss blocks that a veteran in the same spot with comparable blocking ratings picks up.

But still, it's obvious that blocking ratings don't matter as they should. Sure, a 95 OVR blocker is maybe better than a 75 OVR, but by how much? How much longer can he hold a block, I get the feeling that more often than not, block ratings don't matter as much as I'd want them to. Linemen interactions have been one of the worst executed parts of the game for years now, and I'd really like for them to overhaul them.

Especially for the CPU, on All-Madden, it doesn't matter whatsoever who they put on the line, no pass rusher will EVER beat a block, Power and Finesse Move ratings seem to be absolutely, completely useless on All-Madden even a backup guard can easily hold a block for 5-10 seconds against Jared Allen, that just shouldn't be possible.

[jwhite1347]

Re: Why do rating never matter

I think you all ate hitting it right on the head. Madden has always catered to the eye candy aspects of the game. So block rating impacts seem to be pushed away. My 12 rated line consistently provides a 4.2 YPc. When I put back in the 85 OL. You guessed it 4.2 YPC. Takes so much away from the game.

[TreFacTor]

Re: Why do rating never matter

The difficulty setting has a tendency to nullify the ratings and boost them for the cpu when necessary. You can clearly see the difference between pro and all madden. The problem is that if the ratings really mattered Madden wouldn't need a difficulty setting at all because the player ratings would separate good teams from bad ones. For instance if ratings mattered on the pro difficulty Blaine Gabbert wouldn't play any different that he would on all madden, this isn't the case because the higher difficulty levels adjust those initial ratings so Gabbert on all madden will play like Brady, Manning or any other Hall of famer and may even demonstrate qualities of Vick to the point where Gabbert is only recognizable by the name on his jersey rather than the ratings he has or his actual abilities.

I have been saying for the longest time that ratings mean nothing when the underlying mechanics of the difficulty setting simply throws those numbers out the window to present that the game is getting harder when it actually isn't.

[TheDelta]

Re: Why do rating never matter

I have been saying for the longest time that ratings mean nothing when the underlying mechanics of the difficulty setting simply throws those numbers out the window to present that the game is getting harder when it actually isn't.

I disagree on this massively. Yes, of course the CPU gets a boost on higher difficulty levels, that's what higher difficulty levels are for, obviously. But it's not like ratings suddenly don't matter anymore.

Yes, the differences between a very good and a great QB can get minimal when they both get pumped up to the point they're pretty much perfect. But Gabbert will still sail more throws than Brady and will be easier to rattle (you can sack Brady all you want, it's almost impossible to give him the almighty "Sense Pressure: Trigger Happy" or "Paranoid" effects, while Gabbert usually gets them after getting hit once or twice), McElroy won't be able to throw as far as A-Rod no matter what difficulty you're on.

And no matter what difficulty you're on, Gabbert will NEVER be able to run like Vick simply because his speed isn't as high and difficulty level has no effect on speed whatsoever.

So does every rating in this game matter as it should? No, as I said, especially line interaction is still very, very broken. But most ratings do matter in one way or another, and while difficulty levels of course have an effect on this, they don't take ratings out of the equation. Even on All-Madden, Peyton Hillis will fall forward when tackled much, much more often than, for example, Jahvid Best will, and Hillis won't avoid as many tackles as Best. Both will avoid more tackles than if you were playing on Pro, but Hillis will still come out ahead.

[TreFacTor]

Re: Why do rating never matter

I disagree on this massively. Yes, of course the CPU gets a boost on higher difficulty levels, that's what higher difficulty levels are for, obviously. But it's not like ratings suddenly don't matter anymore.

Yes, the differences between a very good and a great QB can get minimal when they both get pumped up to the point they're pretty much perfect. But Gabbert will still sail more throws than Brady and will be easier to rattle (you can sack Brady all you want, it's almost impossible to give him the almighty "Sense Pressure: Trigger Happy" or "Paranoid" effects, while Gabbert usually gets them after getting hit once or twice), McElroy won't be able to throw as far as A-Rod no matter what difficulty you're on.

And no matter what difficulty you're on, Gabbert will NEVER be able to run like Vick simply because his speed isn't as high and difficulty level has no effect on speed whatsoever.

So does every rating in this game matter as it should? No, as I said, especially line interaction is still very, very broken. But most ratings do matter in one way or another, and while difficulty levels of course have an effect on this, they don't take ratings out of the equation. Even on All-Madden, Peyton Hillis will fall forward when tackled much, much more often than, for example, Jahvid Best will, and Hillis won't avoid as many tackles as Best. Both will avoid more tackles than if you were playing on Pro, but Hillis will still come out ahead.

I wasn't referring Gabbert to Vick in the sense of speed, but his elusiveness and other attributes get a bump in order to make him do things he would normally not be able to do. The distinction between what the user is able to do and what the computer is able to do on the higher difficulties is extremely apparent; the description in the sliders tell you this. The game absolutely chucks the ratings (for your team) out the window on harder difficulties because of this and makes your players worse. This is the reason there are so many custom slider sets... to at least try to get the players to play within their ratings while still pinching out some resemblance of a challenge from the cpu and it's psychic AI.

If you can get pressure on pro, that pressure diminishes on all pro and becomes non existent for the user on all madden instead of the cpu being able to read a blitz and make adjustments at the line in order to get better protection, the computer simply stops your ability to get penetration at the line and on top of that it already knows what play you picked and decided how to beat it. This can be proven simply by selecting a different play at the line of scrimmage every time. 8 out of ten times you the cpu will prevent pressure from you defense but since you audibled,it's not smart enough to know you did it, gets flustered and will throw a pick, incompletion etc.

We won't see an improvement on this one way or another for 13 so it really isn't worth arguing about so I will agree to disagree on this matter. All I know is that the game is incredibly boring playing with house rules just to give the cpu a chance on all madden.

[KBLover]

Re: Why do rating never matter

But still, it's obvious that blocking ratings don't matter as they should. Sure, a 95 OVR blocker is maybe better than a 75 OVR, but by how much? How much longer can he hold a block, I get the feeling that more often than not, block ratings don't matter as much as I'd want them to. Linemen interactions have been one of the worst executed parts of the game for years now, and I'd really like for them to overhaul them.

They need an overhaul, I agree, both in interaction and logic.

But, I think blocking matters - I mean, if it didn't - why is my line playing much better than with the old line I had? It's nothing as extreme is 75 vs 95. For example, Perry (my rookie LT) is a 76 OVR. The guy he replaced (also young...and I didn't cut him like I thought...) is a 75. Looking at their ratings, they are basically identical except Perry is better at RBS, RBK (for what that's worth), IBL, and PBS. And it shows in the games.

I agree that AWR makes a difference, but Perry is 64 and the LT is 60 so I don't think that's making the difference.

[KBLover]

Re: Why do rating never matter

The difficulty setting has a tendency to nullify the ratings and boost them for the cpu when necessary. You can clearly see the difference between pro and all madden. The problem is that if the ratings really mattered Madden wouldn't need a difficulty setting at all because the player ratings would separate good teams from bad ones.

Difficulty impacts more than just this though.

The CPU runs smarter on the higher levels - the players (CPU and CPU-controlled players on the User team) react better and smarter. The decisions the CPU makes at QB tend to be better.

To get the CPU to play at even a similar level at All-Pro as All-Madden, I have to up All-Pro a lot, especially in run blocking, because the CPU runs so badly and indecisively.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: Why do rating never matter

The difficulty setting has a tendency to nullify the ratings and boost them for the cpu when necessary. You can clearly see the difference between pro and all madden. The problem is that if the ratings really mattered Madden wouldn't need a difficulty setting at all because the player ratings would separate good teams from bad ones. For instance if ratings mattered on the pro difficulty Blaine Gabbert wouldn't play any different that he would on all madden, this isn't the case because the higher difficulty levels adjust those initial ratings so Gabbert on all madden will play like Brady, Manning or any other Hall of famer and may even demonstrate qualities of Vick to the point where Gabbert is only recognizable by the name on his jersey rather than the ratings he has or his actual abilities.

I have been saying for the longest time that ratings mean nothing when the underlying mechanics of the difficulty setting simply throws those numbers out the window to present that the game is getting harder when it actually isn't.

I really feel what you are saying and have for the longest time been an advocate of a different POV for what difficulty settings should affect. Payton Manning on Rookie should be the same player on All Madden but other factors should be different.

In CPU v HUM games difficulty settings should affect the CPU playcalling complexity, how much manual input is needed from the HUM and officiating, with the best balance for these things being on All Pro.

So on Rookie, the CPU would call basic plays, the HUM would have things like optimal pass trajectory, Gameplan/Gameflow, special moves, adjustments, catches, ball stripping, etc, automated and the penalties would be called tighter on the CPU than the HUM. However, on All Madden, the CPU would utilize complex playcalling depth/strategy, the HUM would have to manually execute and penalties would be called tighter on the HUM than CPU.

This would also allow for HUM v HUM games of any skill level, with each person choosing their own difficulty setting. So a noob could set their difficulty setting to Rookie against a hardcore gamer playing on All Madden.

I think they touched on this premise with that adaptive skill level thing in Madden 10? but it was yet another good idea that needed better implementation, imo.

[Cavicchi]

Re: Why do ratings never matter

It seems every year this is the case. So did the standard experiment. Changed all ratings on an offensive line to 5. This results in entire ol rated a 12 overall.

Then proceeded to sim and play several games and statistically compare to control set (OL with average rating of 85). And yep, effectively no difference.

So an entire OL rated 12 will be just as effective as any other rated OL.

Oh well.

Yep, I've observed that with default settings. I even traded for a 90+ OL and it made no difference in how they block. Mangold, Joe Thomas, and Sitton were among my OL.