Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

[Senator Palmer]

Before I get started, this isn't about the 4-3 Over Plus alignment, as that seems to be correct from what I have seen on Sundays. I am strictly talking about the 4-3 Over that has been in our defensive playbooks for as long as I can remember.

Now lately I have been trying to add some new wrinkles to my defensive repertoire, expand my use of fronts, and have been doing some reading lately, specifically on the 4-3 Over because most of my favorite defenses seem prefer this front. Now an over front is where the 3 technique tackle shifts to the strong side of the offensive formation (to the TE) and the defensive end on the strong side plays a 9 technique on the tight end side.

4-3 Over:





Note how the WILL is not on the line of scrimmage and is free to fill the B gap.


In an under front, it's just the opposite, with the 3 technique shifted to the weak side of the offensive formation, with the 9 technique defensive end out in space and the Strong Side Linebacker playing on the line of scrimmage over the tight end.

4-3 Under:





Here is what an Over in Madden looks like:



Now this is my question. Look at the linebacker on the weakside. Why is he on the line of scrimmage? If I am playing the game, and using the proper defensive alignment against say a 2 back/1 TE formation, then the weakside linebacker will be playing on the LOS, uncovered in a 7 technique away from the TE. I do not think this is correct. In the first examples above, the weakside linebacker is off the LOS and is able to play in space. I have never seen an Over played in the manner it is in Madden and I couldn't find any examples of it anywhere either. When I try to run this in the game, the weakside backer gets eaten up by blocks on the LOS and can't secure the B gap consistently, so if my MLB takes on the play in the A gap, the back has a free gap to bounce the play to.

If try to remedy this and flip the play, the strong side linebacker will get on the LOS over the TE, but the line shifts away into a front that is no longer and over. It's not a true Under either, but some strange alignment that leaves 3 big bubbles.

Now I do know how to work around this. That's not my issue. My question is to those with a deeper understanding of real alignments that me is, am I misunderstanding how an 4-3 Over defense should look or does this need to be fixed for Madden 13? Does the outside linebacker need to come off the LOS?


For anyone interested in a good read, here is a Hall of Fame post by Sven on 4-3 alignments and gap responsibilities. No WILL on the LOS their either...

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...y-johnson.html

[LBzrule]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

Before I get started, this isn't about the 4-3 Over Plus alignment, as that seems to be correct from what I have seen on Sundays. I am strictly talking about the 4-3 Over that has been in our defensive playbooks for as long as I can remember.

Now lately I have been trying to add some new wrinkles to my defensive repertoire, expand my use of fronts, and have been doing some reading lately, specifically on the 4-3 Over because most of my favorite defenses seem prefer this front. Now an over front is where the 3 technique tackle shifts to the strong side of the offensive formation (to the TE) and the defensive end on the strong side plays a 9 technique on the tight end side.

4-3 Over:





Note how the WILL is not on the line of scrimmage and is free to fill the B gap.


In an under front, it's just the opposite, with the 3 technique shifted to the weak side of the offensive formation, with the 9 technique defensive end out in space and the Strong Side Linebacker playing on the line of scrimmage over the tight end.

4-3 Under:





Here is what an Over in Madden looks like:



Now this is my question. Look at the linebacker on the weakside. Why is he on the line of scrimmage? If I am playing the game, and using the proper defensive alignment against say a 2 back/1 TE formation, then the weakside linebacker will be playing on the LOS, uncovered in a 7 technique away from the TE. I do not think this is correct. In the first examples above, the weakside linebacker is off the LOS and is able to play in space. I have never seen an Over played in the manner it is in Madden and I couldn't find any examples of it anywhere either. When I try to run this in the game, the weakside backer gets eaten up by blocks on the LOS and can't secure the B gap consistently, so if my MLB takes on the play in the A gap, the back has a free gap to bounce the play to.

If try to remedy this and flip the play, the strong side linebacker will get on the LOS over the TE, but the line shifts away into a front that is no longer and over. It's not a true Under either, but some strange alignment that leaves 3 big bubbles.

Now I do know how to work around this. That's not my issue. My question is to those with a deeper understanding of real alignments that me is, am I misunderstanding how an 4-3 Over defense should look or does this need to be fixed for Madden 13? Does the outside linebacker need to come off the LOS?


For anyone interested in a good read, here is a Hall of Fame post by Sven on 4-3 alignments and gap responsibilities. No WILL on the LOS their either...

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...y-johnson.html

I will simply say, this has been discussed with them several times and leave it at that. Especially Under.

[KBLover]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

It needs to be fixed, especially the Under.

For the Under:
The LBs are pretty much arranged backwards. Sam should be on the line, not Will. They need to flip the LB level over.

If they did that, then Sam would be on the line, Mike and Will can read space.

For the Over:
They need to move Will back some yards.


What I don't get is why they don't do what you just did and see the alignment is wrong...

[BezO]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

I can only guess it's one of those things harder to fix than we think, because it seems like an easy fix. Maybe they have issues with the AI.

In conjuction with fixing these and other alignment problems on defense, they need to actually have strong/weak LBs as many teams don't use them interchangably.

[LBzrule]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

It needs to be fixed, especially the Under.

For the Under:
The LBs are pretty much arranged backwards. Sam should be on the line, not Will. They need to flip the LB level over.

If they did that, then Sam would be on the line, Mike and Will can read space.

For the Over:
They need to move Will back some yards.


What I don't get is why they don't do what you just did and see the alignment is wrong...

The DT alignment is also extremely important, especially in the Under.

[iAM-IncReDiBLe-]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

Its simple things like this that give me no faith in madden.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

I can only guess it's one of those things harder to fix than we think, because it seems like an easy fix. Maybe they have issues with the AI.

In conjuction with fixing these and other alignment problems on defense, they need to actually have strong/weak LBs as many teams don't use them interchangably.

I hear you, and factoring in LBzrule's response, this may be the most logical explanation... maybe -- although I get the feeling that it's something else not worth getting into -- that's why I just can't accept it, because apparently it's been wrong for a long time. Add to that, it seems that every year they drop in a new alignment. In the past few years we've seen the Predator, 4-3 Odd, Psycho, 4-3 Over Plus, not to mention all of the Nickel and Sub packages they have added and expanded.

I just can't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. I can't believe it's that difficult to move the linebacker off the LOS and shift them into their proper gaps.

[dirtguru]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

I hear you, and factoring in LBzrule's response, this may be the most logical explanation... maybe -- although I get the feeling that it's something else not worth getting into -- that's why I just can't accept it, because apparently it's been wrong for a long time. Add to that, it seems that every year they drop in a new alignment. In the past few years we've seen the Predator, 4-3 Odd, Psycho, 4-3 Over Plus, not to mention all of the Nickel and Sub packages they have added and expanded.

I just can't give them the benefit of the doubt anymore. I can't believe it's that difficult to move the linebacker off the LOS and shift them into their proper gaps.

We can move our LBs on or off the LOS or anywhere else on the field. so I see no reason that they can not be programed into the proper allignment.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: Defensive Alignment: 4-3 Over - Does Madden Have This Wrong?

Wanted to revitalize this thread. Was this ever discussed at Tiburon for Madden 25? Do these fronts actually do what they are supposed to do? I'm more of a 4-3 under kind of guy when I play Madden and rarely use the OVER alignments. However, this is something that is basic football and should be fixed and working properly in the only NFL game. Who does the play design for defense in Madden? Do they understand this stuff or are they just taking a stab at it?