What does simulation mean to you?

[BezO]

I tried this a few years ago and it was a disaster. I was accused of all types of nonsense. Understand I'm only trying to create dialog. Some say Madden's gameplay is good & can simulate football while others say it's impossible.

From my experience, seems like simulation and/or realism is attributed to 3 things:

-Realistic scores & stats
-Realistic difficulty
-Realistic movement & reaction of players

I'm in that 3rd group. I need realistic movement & reaction of players. I want players to interact in a realistic way. I want realistic footwork implemented so that players move about the field in a realistic way. I want players having football assignments while keying & reacting to appropriate actions. This is where I feel Madden is lacking and why I say football cannot be simulated with Madden.

I feel scores, stats & difficulty are user related. How good you are at the game will determine how much you score, how much you allow your opponent to score, how difficult it is to accomplish tasks like passing, kicking, etc. IMO, this is separate from realism. This is where sliders & difficulty levels come into play so that we can all customize settings to fit our individual skill levels.

So, what does simulation mean to you? And how is Madden able to provide this for you, if at all? Also, do you feel your level of football knowledge affects how you view Madden?

[LBzrule]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I need all three in BALANCE.

Having realistic scores but not having realistic difficulty and movement and player behavior/reactions is not enough to keep me interested. This is what we have now IMO and it is a very frustrating experience at times. Leads to me playing more Gears of War 3 than football.

Having realistic difficulty without the others = snooze.

Having realistic movement and player behavior/reactions but no realistic scores is something I don't want any part of.

Ideally all three need to be blended together in a nice balance. That to me is simulation. This year Madden has given me #1. Most of my games barring a few have been realistic scores. The other two I'm still searching for. 3


I wouldn't necessarily say football knowledge affects my view, but my understanding of football combine with my understanding of physics and movement do. I was just playing around last night and just sat there and was utterly disgusted with what I saw. I was practicing a particular pass concept that gets a hi/lo on the linebackers. The one linebacker went with the underneath route. He literally started sprinting with the man running underneath although he was in hook zone. So I said yep, my guy running the high route should be open. As soon as I threw the football this dude stopped on a dime, broke off the shallow route, did not even turn his hips, but levitated backwards like a ghost sliding across the floor and then jumped and knocked the pass down. This type of MESS has to go. If I see it in any of the videos this year I will not be thrilled and will think about not purchasing the game just based off of it. It's lame and it's time to stop accepting that mediocre BS. Nobody can commit to one route and then stop on a dime, levitate backwards without tearing something. I'm not going to accept it.

If I see one hint of it, I'm out.

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

That's where I am. I guess I assume once they get the players moving & interacting like humans / football players, with real assignments & keys, everything else should fall into place.

I think Madden does a great job of minipulating the gameplay to acheive realistic scores. Like you, I rarely got scores that were unbelievable. I can only imagine that once they get the players moving & reacting realistically, scores & stats won't be a problem. I too want a balance of the 3. The movement & reactions are a priority for me because it seems to be the weak link of Madden. And aside from user skill, that player interaction, movement & reaction will determine scores & stats.

I've long since been tired of the unrealistic movement and it has affected my purchase decisions in a negative way since I've owned a PS3.

[stiffarmleft]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Although I think true simulaiton is not possible in a video game because of the human element, realistic movement and reaction should be the starting point of any game wanting to come close to being a simulation of any sport. I just want a fun game that provides a challenge with nuanced gameplay and believable animations that does not get repetitive, stats are secondary.

I think some people would be happier playing a strat-o-matic game because that's the only way to relibably get realistic stats and scores. As soon as you throw the human player in all bets are off, especially when a game does not respect several laws of physics and the gamer is looking for exploits and money plays.

[RGiles36]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

So, what does simulation mean to you? And how is Madden able to provide this for you, if at all? Also, do you feel your level of football knowledge affects how you view Madden?

I'm not going to go into a diatribe about what sim means to me. It's certainly a combination of several factors and elements.

In a nutshell, sim to me means authenticity. It starts with gameplay. I think back to M08: theee inordinate amount of bone-shattering hits, the whistle sound on deep balls, the comeback AI (I believe this once existed), insane amount of turnovers, etc. All of those factors and more contributed to that game being more arcade then sim. If we fast-forward to M12, all of that has been removed. While some of the gameplay still allows for un-sim tactics, for the most part I find what happens on the field to be conceivable and believable (I don't play online for the record).

So for me, simulation starts with the actions on the field, hardwood, boxing ring, etc being conceivable actions that I would see IRL.

Outside of gameplay, sim also lends itself to broadcast presentation, career modes, etc.

Madden provides simulation for me because offline, the game can be played in a realistic manner. Sure, the OL/DL & WR/DB interaction leaves something to be desired, but it doesn't completely wreck my immersion. The linebackers making plays they shouldn't (as LBz alluded to) is frustrating, but I've learned to play around it until it's addressed. The footplanting & locomotion could be tighter in M12, but quiet as kept, NBA 2K12 + APF2K8 also feature footsliding although to a lesser degree.

Does football knowledge affect how I view Madden? That's a dicey question. I guess I would say yes. But I probably view it on the opposite end of the spectrum. I think football knowledge lends itself in a positive light to Madden for the things that it does correctly. There are some ideas/concepts from real football that carry over to Madden. However, on a whole, I think the strategy element in Madden is very vanilla. I'd like to see it go deeper b/c the game of football has several layers to it.

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Stiffarmleft,

Do you feel your football knowledge affects how you view Madden? Do you find that you're able to use the football knowledge that you have? Is the game sufficient from a strategic standpoint?

I guess I didn't answer that question myself. I feel like Madden doesn't meet my needs on the strategic side because I've played, coached & watched football for so long. I feel like the limitations of the defensive play calling system, for example, stand out to me because I'm familiar with how fronts, stunts, blitzes, shells & coverage are put together IRL.

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

In a nutshell, sim to me means authenticity. It starts with gameplay. I think back to M08: theee inordinate amount of bone-shattering hits, the whistle sound on deep balls, the comeback AI (I believe this once existed), insane amount of turnovers, etc. All of those factors and more contributed to that game being more arcade then sim. If we fast-forward to M12, all of that has been removed. While some of the gameplay still allows for un-sim tactics, for the most part I find what happens on the field to be conceivable and believable (I don't play online for the record).

So for me, simulation starts with the actions on the field, hardwood, boxing ring, etc being conceivable actions that I would see IRL.

Madden provides simulation for me because offline, the game can be played in a realistic manner. Sure, the OL/DL & WR/DB interaction leaves something to be desired, but it doesn't completely wreck my immersion. The linebackers making plays they shouldn't (as LBz alluded to) is frustrating, but I've learned to play around it until it's addressed. The footplanting & locomotion could be tighter in M12, but quiet as kept, NBA 2K12 + APF2K8 also feature footsliding although to a lesser degree.

I think some play types look great in Madden. Runs up the middle & quick passes come to mind. Many times, these plays unfold in a believable way.

We agree that player interaction needs work. It's when plays take longer to develop that they start to look less realistic to me. Outside runs tend to emphasize the lack of engaged player lateral movement, for example. Deeper QB drops tend to emphasize the lack of engaged player verticle movement, not allowing DEs to get up field.

Outside of gameplay, sim also lends itself to broadcast presentation, career modes, etc.

I didn't consider this. Though presentation may not play a part in how I play, it definitely plays a part in the visual experience. And as half of my gaming is played against the CPU, seasons being simulated is important to me as well.

Does football knowledge affect how I view Madden? That's a dicey question. I guess I would say yes. But I probably view it on the opposite end of the spectrum. I think football knowledge lends itself in a positive light to Madden for the things that it does correctly. There are some ideas/concepts from real football that carry over to Madden. However, on a whole, I think the strategy element in Madden is very vanilla. I'd like to see it go deeper b/c the game of football has several layers to it.

I probably should've asked this differently to trigger deeper examples on the positive side. Can you give an example or 2 of what Madden does right regarding strategy?

[stiffarmleft]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Stiffarmleft,

Do you feel your football knowledge affects how you view Madden? Do you find that you're able to use the football knowledge that you have? Is the game sufficient from a strategic standpoint?

I guess I didn't answer that question myself. I feel like Madden doesn't meet my needs on the strategic side because I've played, coached & watched football for so long. I feel like the limitations of the defensive play calling system, for example, stand out to me because I'm familiar with how fronts, stunts, blitzes, shells & coverage are put together IRL.

I would not put myself in the same category as you and LBz, I've read several of you guys post through the years and respect your knowledge. That being said with the knowledge I do have I find it difficult to be strategic in madden simply because the game does not respect the fundamentals of football either in CPU playcalling or on the field movement. So even with a base knowledge of football concepts, it's difficult to employ them in madden, let alone complex stunts, blitzes or zone blocking schemes.

[Broncos86]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

A simulation is something that attempts to mimic aspects of the real thing. By definition, Madden simulates football. The question is to what degree of accuracy. There is zero question (unless you wish to be irrational) that Madden is a simulator of the NFL.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I need all three in BALANCE.

Having realistic scores but not having realistic difficulty and movement and player behavior/reactions is not enough to keep me interested. This is what we have now IMO and it is a very frustrating experience at times. Leads to me playing more Gears of War 3 than football.

Having realistic difficulty without the others = snooze.

Having realistic movement and player behavior/reactions but no realistic scores is something I don't want any part of.

Ideally all three need to be blended together in a nice balance. That to me is simulation. This year Madden has given me #1. Most of my games barring a few have been realistic scores. The other two I'm still searching for. 3


I wouldn't necessarily say football knowledge affects my view, but my understanding of football combine with my understanding of physics and movement do. I was just playing around last night and just sat there and was utterly disgusted with what I saw. I was practicing a particular pass concept that gets a hi/lo on the linebackers. The one linebacker went with the underneath route. He literally started sprinting with the man running underneath although he was in hook zone. So I said yep, my guy running the high route should be open. As soon as I threw the football this dude stopped on a dime, broke off the shallow route, did not even turn his hips, but levitated backwards like a ghost sliding across the floor and then jumped and knocked the pass down. This type of MESS has to go. If I see it in any of the videos this year I will not be thrilled and will think about not purchasing the game just based off of it. It's lame and it's time to stop accepting that mediocre BS. Nobody can commit to one route and then stop on a dime, levitate backwards without tearing something. I'm not going to accept it.

If I see one hint of it, I'm out.

This post is right on the money. I think the biggest problem is player movement, which leads to the "un-balancing" of the other two. The left stick movements by the ball carrier (i.e, the swerving/zig zagging/twitchy cuts) allow the ball carrier to miss the hole, run into filled gaps, etc. etc. and not pay a price for it. They end up breaking 80+ yard runs. In my league, we have a rule that prohibits use of the left stick once beyond the line of scrimmage. I heard it all from guys who would look at that rule and say it was ridiculous. Then, low and behold, they tried it. We soon got guys talking about how great the rule was, because instead of 4 80+ yard TD runs per game, you maybe had 3 or 4 in a season. The warping is another issue, as LBz describes here. You get the feeling that the player movement and interaction is artificially scripted in order to prevent certain things from happening. You feel "cheated" simply because players do things they should not do. Making good reads isn't really a factor because guys who are open or should be open, suddenly are covered by a warp or a ridiculous leap.

[carnalnirvana]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

i too need a balance of all three but simulation for me is about the outcome.

its all about the cpu execution for me, thats where the lasting appeal will come from for me...

on offense i dont get the feel that the cpu is using their players to win, due to bad playcalling and poor execution

on D everyone shines which leads to no one shining brightly, and it seems the worst team in madden is better than the best team in the nfl in real life....

they have to get execution better and make mistakes or busted plays possible....players need balance and movement upgrades

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

A simulation is something that attempts to mimic aspects of the real thing. By definition, Madden simulates football. The question is to what degree of accuracy. There is zero question (unless you wish to be irrational) that Madden is a simulator of the NFL.

It would be great if you could go a little deeper. I was hoping to get down to the hows & whys. Care to share how you feel Madden simulates football? What aspects of Maden are true to the NFL? Does Madden allow you to strategize as much as you would like? How is your knowledge of football related to how you feel about Madden?

[Tyrant8RDFL]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

I tried this a few years ago and it was a disaster. I was accused of all types of nonsense. Understand I'm only trying to create dialog. Some say Madden's gameplay is good & can simulate football while others say it's impossible.

From my experience, seems like simulation and/or realism is attributed to 3 things:

-Realistic scores & stats
-Realistic difficulty
-Realistic movement & reaction of players

I'm in that 3rd group. I need realistic movement & reaction of players. I want players to interact in a realistic way. I want realistic footwork implemented so that players move about the field in a realistic way. I want players having football assignments while keying & reacting to appropriate actions. This is where I feel Madden is lacking and why I say football cannot be simulated with Madden.

I feel scores, stats & difficulty are user related. How good you are at the game will determine how much you score, how much you allow your opponent to score, how difficult it is to accomplish tasks like passing, kicking, etc. IMO, this is separate from realism. This is where sliders & difficulty levels come into play so that we can all customize settings to fit our individual skill levels.

So, what does simulation mean to you? And how is Madden able to provide this for you, if at all? Also, do you feel your level of football knowledge affects how you view Madden?

I was going to jump on the whole realistic stats and score statement you listed, but what you mentioned later on is right on, and exactly what I was going to say. All user related in so many ways.

I'm also in the 3rd tier. So much is involved in that area, and is the one area that would make the game very much so a simulation, but this alone is a HUGE project. There are so many areas that are involved and have to be done right.

It doesn't stop there. Then how match ups play out is very important to giving us the simulation aspect of the sport. Player ratings then come into play.

There is so much that needs to be done to get things right for a true simulation football game.

EA just needs to understand and maybe they do. That all the different areas of a football game have so many details that they need to pay attention to it very closely.

A Few examples.

The whole passing game from the Qb mechanics down to the pass blocking, and the pass rush. All the details involved in that one area. Double team blocking, zone blocking. All the penalties involved.

Then you have the whole rushing game, and all the details involved int that area.

We now go into the whole game between WR's and DB's, and again all the penalties involved there.

Special teams.

Passing defense.

Rushing defense.

There are different island in the game of football, and they all need to be visited and evaluated properly and separately.

Once all that is done and given special attention. Then we can become much closer to a true football simulation.

[LBzrule]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

Stiffarmleft,

Do you feel your football knowledge affects how you view Madden? Do you find that you're able to use the football knowledge that you have? Is the game sufficient from a strategic standpoint?

I guess I didn't answer that question myself. I feel like Madden doesn't meet my needs on the strategic side because I've played, coached & watched football for so long. I feel like the limitations of the defensive play calling system, for example, stand out to me because I'm familiar with how fronts, stunts, blitzes, shells & coverage are put together IRL.

Ohh yeah, from that standpoint the game leaves a GREAT deal to be desired. No line stunts that are executed properly; a lack of basic coverages in EVERY defense. They did a better job this year though, but like you I would like to get the mixes I want. If I want to sit back in cover 6 and run a TEX or TOE stunt with my DE's and DT's that would be fabulous. Or if I want to mix in blitzes with those stunts that would be great too. But nope I'm regulated to basic calls because "the OL cannot handle the stunts." And as I've said before, it baffles me. OL can't handle the stunt, yet the game is released to the community and BS ways are developed to get pressure on the QB. Which would they rather have?

[BezO]

Re: What does simulation mean to you?

i too need a balance of all three but simulation for me is about the outcome.

its all about the cpu execution for me, thats where the lasting appeal will come from for me...

I would interpret these differently. Outcome = scores & stats. Execution = how you come about these scores & stats. I feel Madden does the former very well, not so much for the latter.

on offense i dont get the feel that the cpu is using their players to win, due to bad playcalling and poor execution

on D everyone shines which leads to no one shining brightly, and it seems the worst team in madden is better than the best team in the nfl in real life....

they have to get execution better and make mistakes or busted plays possible....players need balance and movement upgrades

I think this is something they can do better once assignments are more NFL-like. A defender can't overun his gap, for example, if he doesn't have one.

It's tough to tell sometimes if EA has "missed assignments" in the game as mishaps seem to be so random. I can never tell if a player got confused/fooled, missed his assignment or if the AI is just bad.

But I do think this is important in order to separate good, bad & great players. Even in user vs user game, many of us want ratings, especially awareness, to play a part in player performance.