User Control and Online Play

[GiantBlue76]

I find this topic to be an interesting conversation piece, especially since I have had a decent sample size to work with. I run a successful league and we are nearly done with season 4. We have always had a full 32 players in our league. One thing that I have found interesting about competitive leagues is the tendency for guys who don't do much user control to begin complaining about the guys who do. Now, in a competitive environment I hate to lose and I've had my share of losing streaks. However, I find it interesting how many guys seem to begin pointing the finger at other guys saying they are "cheating" or that they don't play "sim" because they exhibit effective skills as a "user". They have a problem with a guy switching to the safety for example, and getting into position to make the pick or play on the ball. While we can all agree there are issues with Madden that can be greatly improved as far as player movement and defensive positioning, I can't agree that this is "cheese" style play. Over the last two years (since I started playing Madden again), I've gotten better and better at user controlling players to take away certain routes that my opponents tend to go to. I believe that the decision making you use on defense as the user is just as important as the play calls you make. If you choose NOT to play your assignment, your opponent will make you pay for it. For example, in the last game I played, my opponent, a very good play caller, was killing me with passes to his halfback, because I would take the linebacker away from his assignment and double team the TE. This is simple stuff, take what the defense is giving you. However, later in the game, I sat on the check down route with my speedy WILL LB and picked it. He was frustrated about this, along with another interception that was made in the end zone earlier in the game. IMO, both passes should have been broken up as opposed to intercepted, but that's a whole different discussion .

The point here is that I think many folks in sports gaming are the type that can't enjoy the experience if they don't have success 99% of the time. Now the particular opponent I played is a very mature owner who will mostly look inward and adjust his game to achieve success, but many guys won't. Instead of looking at what they can improve the reaction is that they want a new rule made or that the game sucks or that this or that is broken. While this is true to a degree in certain areas, there are ways to approach these issues in order to achieve success. 2 years ago I wasn't all that good at user control where as now I am MUCH better at it. However, when my opponent makes me pay for being too aggressive or over committing, that's all part of football and is what makes it fun. It forces you to constantly evolve how you play and out think your opponent.

I think there is too big of a portion of folks who claim they want realism, but in actuality, they want to have constant success instead. When they aren't having success (i.e, against a person who has good user skills), they tend to accuse that user of cheese play or "not sim" instead of learning to counter it. Learning to counter good user skills, player switching and other things is a part of developing your game. This, along with some much needed improvements within the game will make everyone's experience a much better one, win or lose.

[PGaither84]

Re: User Control and Online Play

People like to cry when things don't go their way.

When we played our game, my one complaint the whole time was simply how I wasn't allowed to play to my team's strength. You are good at stuffing the run ,adn when I did get a decent push up front you did a great job of holding me to 3 yards and not letting me keep it inside or take it outside. I gave you credit where credit was do. My complaint was how my 49ers completely outmatch the Giants front 7 with the exception of my Center vs your #2DT and yet I couldn't get any push.

I want ratings to matter. I want to be able to play to my team's strength and do by best to minimize my team's weaknesses.

Another problem is in the pass rush. In Madden, there just isn't a realistic pass rush from the front 4 without blitzing.

I can't do this:

http://youtu.be/NSyuDc6RJRI

or this:

http://youtu.be/cWjo45L4m2w

in Madden.

I can do this with sliders though:

http://youtu.be/K3H1PgImtZ0

http://youtu.be/1ivI_BEubFw

It isn't realistic, and I am till tuning those sliders so Justin Smith doesn't reverse pancake someone like Carl Nicks, but the fact that I can tweak the sliders to a point where that can happen... to a point where an AI controlled Aldon Smith isn't sucked into and stuck in an animation with the LT... that makes me happy.

I want to know that when I have the personnel, I can get pressure. and not let the QB have all day unless I blitz... and I don't think I am asking too much, am I?

[Big FN Deal]

Re: User Control and Online Play

It's hard for me tell the difference between someone just being a sore loser or having a legitimate issue with Madden due to the lack of real life parameter representation in so many aspects.

I personally despise watching the CPU make bone head plays on either offense or defense, for say deep passes but I also despise being able to switch to User control and manually do things like speed burst with a player that should already be hustling, press the interception/catch button to trigger an animation that shouldn't be possible, seemingly override ratings, ad lib/ignore the playcall without any disruption of teammates assignments, making excessive contact with the other player with little to no risk of a penalty or having no means to prevent/dislodge a defenders interception attempt.

Until there is true User skill required for User control in Madden, I can't really consider someone having an issue with it, a sore loser.

[PGaither84]

Re: User Control and Online Play

Until there is true User skill required for User control in Madden, I can't really consider someone having an issue with it, a sore loser.

I agree. Right now you can do a number of things you shouldn't be able to do and can't do a number of things you should be able to do.

When I went back over to APF last fall/this winter before buying M12 last week... I was terrible on the sticks in that game because I was playing it like Madden. Now that I am coming back, I am crap at Madden again because I am trying to play it like 2k

[GiantBlue76]

Re: User Control and Online Play

It's hard for me tell the difference between someone just being a sore loser or having a legitimate issue with Madden due to the lack of real life parameter representation in so many aspects.

I personally despise watching the CPU make bone head plays on either offense or defense, for say deep passes but I also despise being able to switch to User control and manually do things like speed burst with a player that should already be hustling, press the interception/catch button to trigger an animation that shouldn't be possible, seemingly override ratings, ad lib/ignore the playcall without any disruption of teammates assignments, making excessive contact with the other player with little to no risk of a penalty or having no means to prevent/dislodge a defenders interception attempt.

Until there is true User skill required for User control in Madden, I can't really consider someone having an issue with it, a sore loser.

Great post Big - and this was why I wanted to bring up this discussion. Everything you state here is valid, and I do think that most guys that complain fall into this category here. For example, if I throw a deep pass to a WR who is in one on one coverage and the corner is running with him, I can switch to the receiver and speed burst ahead and make the catch. Why does he suddenly run faster now? By pressing Y when I switch to a DB he shouldn't suddenly warp to the ball. PG is right in that user control in 2k football is nothing like Madden. It's 100 times harder - which in my mind, it should be.

[Smoke6]

Re: User Control and Online Play

All the above is correct, the amount of insane user control with regards to animations is whats the problem!

An example I like to use is the Rocket catch ability that can be performed no matter the conditions or position of the intended WR. Its just throw the ball high no matter the coverage and hit the triangle button and voila. Rinse and repeat down for down.

This is the main reason why there is such discrepency amongst the communities and why the rules are so strict to what we can and cant do in our leagues.

Stop the ability to perform the "exact same" animation from occurring no matter what and this will help somewhat from being an issue about being a sore loser when people know exactly how "madden plays out" and plays to that tone to set their game plan.

Slot streaks are and issue and everyone knows this,

HB draws are the same aswell especially when the opponent isnt a known passer out of 4wr snug formations but does so to draw you in to a formation to abuse the draw play like they do online now.

Just better focus testing on these things can resolve alot of these issues before the game ships, trust and believe these guys hit the lab just to find loopholes in the defense and offense to cause the "sore loser" syndrome.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: User Control and Online Play

The crazy thing, with respect to people running the same hand full of plays over and over, is back in Madden 05 or so, there was that Defensive Playmaker? where you could tell the defensive to commit to the run or pass, no matter the formation as well as checkdown quickly into a handoff or pass on offense. Now in 2012, that might be somewhat outdated but it shows the difference in the focus of Madden back then versus the last 7 years, imo.

[CRMosier_LM]

The crazy thing, with respect to people running the same hand full of plays over and over, is back in Madden 05 or so, there was that Defensive Playmaker? where you could tell the defensive to commit to the run or pass, no matter the formation as well as checkdown quickly into a handoff or pass on offense. Now in 2012, that might be somewhat outdated but it shows the difference in the focus of Madden back then versus the last 7 years, imo.

I never have any problem when someone has better user skills than me. (It happens all of the time, that's what happens when people play a lot more than I do). The only issues I really take offense to are play calling. If you call plays based on what I'm allowing that is fine. When you call plays in combination with each other that are nearly unstoppable I have an issue. I recently had a guy that ran toss several times early (no big deal), then when he would see me ready to stop his toss he would audible to a draw, when I set up to stop the draw he would run toss or quick drag to the te.... Rinse and repeat. Final tally was like 8 or 9 tosses, 12 draws, a couple FB dives, and his te had 6 catches all drag routes. While one of those isn't an issue, when you combine all of those tactics into a gameplan it becomes cheesy. Each one of those plays are fine individually, but the more u use them per game it gets borderline.

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[Kahuma]

Re: User Control and Online Play

This is an exact issue that came up in a league I recently joined. I assist in running a league that's typically 32-users and almost all of us 'User' everything.

This other league that a handful of us from ours joined has members that do the same. The issue, though, came because two of thier league admins do not user catch or defend (and were pretty much beating everyone else in their league). Once our members started playing them they then started to 'threaten' us with banning user catching simply because they refuse to user defend to make up for the A.I.'s 'unintelligence'.

Of course if that does happen they know they'll lose alot of members.

They find it 'cheesey' to throw into double coverage and user catch. (Ex. I threw a fade route to Fred Davis and user caught it between two linebackers.)

It annoys me when people do this. I understand the fustration it can cause but you have as much as an equal chance to defend it as the user has to catch it.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: User Control and Online Play

This is an exact issue that came up in a league I recently joined. I assist in running a league that's typically 32-users and almost all of us 'User' everything.

This other league that a handful of us from ours joined has members that do the same. The issue, though, came because two of thier league admins do not user catch or defend (and were pretty much beating everyone else in their league). Once our members started playing them they then started to 'threaten' us with banning user catching simply because they refuse to user defend to make up for the A.I.'s 'unintelligence'.

Of course if that does happen they know they'll lose alot of members.

They find it 'cheesey' to throw into double coverage and user catch. (Ex. I threw a fade route to Fred Davis and user caught it between two linebackers.)

It annoys me when people do this. I understand the fustration it can cause but you have as much as an equal chance to defend it as the user has to catch it.

Maybe I am misunderstanding this but in the example, it doesn't seem to me Davis should of had an "equal" chance of catching it because the defense had the numbers and it should have been advantage defense. a fade route in between two LBs should have resulted in Davis at least getting his "bell rung" in most cases and if he was able to secure the catch, it should have been rare and highlight worthy.

It's stuff like this that irks me about how Madden is created more so than how gamers play it. I think a User should be allowed to expose Fred Davis or whatever receiver to any scenario they choose but Madden has to represent the applicable real life risk/reward for it.

Madden often offers the visual realism of NFL football without the representing many of the parameters that govern it. It's like playing a game with photo realistic mountains, cliffs and rivers but there is little to no danger to the in-game player, no matter how they interact with them.

[Kahuma]

Re: User Control and Online Play

Maybe I am misunderstanding this but in the example, it doesn't seem to me Davis should of had an "equal" chance of catching it because the defense had the numbers and it should have been advantage defense. a fade route in between two LBs should have resulted in Davis at least getting his "bell rung" in most cases and if he was able to secure the catch, it should have been rare and highlight worthy.

It's stuff like this that irks me about how Madden is created more so than how gamers play it. I think a User should be allowed to expose Fred Davis or whatever receiver to any scenario they choose but Madden has to represent the applicable real life risk/reward for it.

Madden often offers the visual realism of NFL football without the representing many of the parameters that govern it. It's like playing a game with photo realistic mountains, cliffs and rivers but there is little to no danger to the in-game player, no matter how they interact with them.

I am talking about a user-vs.-user perspective. He has the oppotunity to switch to the linebacker and just simply swat the ball but he did not. If you want me to get into the specifics of the play then fine.

He was in between them, coverage-wise. Not like squeezed physically inbetween them. Noone was close enough to make physical contact with him. Reguardless he still could have attempted to make a defensive play and he did not.

Now the REASONS for them not being close enough to hit him is a different arguement and isn't the point of the example.

[GiantBlue76]

Re: User Control and Online Play

Very interesting comments. @Kahuma - that's where we disagree slightly. While I have no problem with good usering, I have a problem with guys making insane catches (on offense OR defense) in triple coverage. While it might happen once out of every 30 times in real life, it happens FAR too often in Madden. I also hate the fact that simply hitting "Y" changes the animation for the defender and gives them a ratings boost and a "warp" to the ball. If you are throwing into triple coverage, you should not come down with the ball that often. This is the line between people wanting realism and people simply wanting to have "success". Most people on here claim they want realism, but they really don't. They want their plays to always work, their lineman to always block, their defenders to always catch the ball, etc. etc. What I've come to realize is that EA has actually delivered exactly what a lot of people who play Madden want. A game that gives you the tools to be wildly "successful" in most of your games. Does it require work?? - yes. However, with realism comes failures more of the time.

[Smoke6]

Re: User Control and Online Play

I couldnt agree more taz, realism to me, brings "more fun and flavor" to the game of madden. Its the risk factor of playing football or any sport that gives it that "IT" factor and draws the interest that it does.

I dont want the CPU to do "everything" for me, but it has to play smart and not "perfect" smart. I don want every attempted pass swatted or picked off nor do I want my O or D line to block like super heroes every down. I just want a sense of great matchups in the trenches...

I wanna see my Oline struggle against Dlines they should struggle against and also see them try their best at hanging in their and doing a good job from time to time. This can be said for every position on the field. Online play and madden in general is only dynamic that first few day or 1st weeks of release and then everything is almost always known in how madden functions.

The online aspect of people manually setting up their defense to get the same results down for down regardless of my play calling, is what makes online play unbearable to a point you seclude yourself to online leagues and franchises when every avenue of features should be there for you with open arms.

Risk vs reward cannot be emphasized enough when building this game every year. But it seems like boneheaded childish type of plays get rewarded more than those with thought out strategically game planned plays.

It seems like dropped passes from guys wide open who seem to drop it on first contact as opposed to those getting hit the moment the ball hits their hands. For the one handed catches, this is very embarrasing to strike an opponent with a hit stick as he stretched out with the ball in one hand and pulls it in everytime. Seems to be no balance what so ever when you see stuff like this happen all the time.

No 2 plays shall ever be the same or share the exact same results!

[Big FN Deal]

Re: User Control and Online Play

I am talking about a user-vs.-user perspective. He has the oppotunity to switch to the linebacker and just simply swat the ball but he did not. If you want me to get into the specifics of the play then fine.

He was in between them, coverage-wise. Not like squeezed physically inbetween them. Noone was close enough to make physical contact with him. Reguardless he still could have attempted to make a defensive play and he did not.

Now the REASONS for them not being close enough to hit him is a different arguement and isn't the point of the example.

Sometimes intent can get convoluted on an internet forum so let me say upfront, I am not trying to argue you down.

That said, why would you throw a "fade" in the scenario you just described then?

Anyway, I think I get the premise of what you are saying but I guess I just feel that there is not enough internal conflict for User control in Madden as well as lacking or missing external conflict. Madden 10 introduced that balance mechanic for upper and lower body control so it would be nice to see something like that applied to User controlled players leaving their feet to attempt catches/interceptions as well as whatever risk from potential contact.

[jyoung]

Re: User Control and Online Play

The problem is that CPU players don't take advantage of Madden's full controls because they're simply not programmed to.

CPU players never use sprint. This is why you notice a "turbo" boost as soon as you take over control of a CPU player. Most users always play with sprint held down.

CPU players never use the hit stick. This is one of the game's best defensive tools, but if you want to use it, you have to do it yourself.

CPU players do not use their pass rush moves enough. A user will flail away with moves as soon as he is engaged by a blocker. A CPU player is content to stay engaged and play "patty cake" with offensive linemen.

CPU players don't aggressively attack the ball when it's in the air, or if they do, they usually go for the swat instead of the INT. Most users will always go for the INT, because the reward is much greater than the risk when compared to Madden's deflect button.

If they would just fix some of these programming errors in CPU behavior, this discussion would be moot.

Instead, we are stuck having to "make up" for the lack of CPU intelligence with user control.

The people complaining about user control have clearly recognized the limitations of Madden's CPU, but for whatever reasons, these players refuse to take steps to fix them with their own user play.

Personally, I wish they would open Madden up to full 11 vs. 11 human games like the FIFA or NHL series. Then we will never have to bring up the topic of CPU behavior again, because all players will be human controlled.

The easiest way to fix bad AI coding is to replace the AI with a human player.