player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

[truffleshuffle]

I had gotten rid of madden 12 awhile back and I was offered to buy the game at a rock bottom price and so I did. Anyway I have been doing a franchise with the steelers and in the first season Mendenhall goes down for the season and big ben goes down for 12 weeks in the fist quarter of the first game. I was struggleing with my back up qb so I was using moore alot at rushing. his overall stats started in the 70s like 74ish or something like that and I ended up with over 1500 rushing yards and avraged around 120 yards a game. I ended the season with him carring well over 350 times and was either top or in the top two out of all the running backs. Durning the offseason when it went through the progression of the players his over all went from around 74 ish to 68 and last on the depth chart. How can that be? there is no way a runningback getting over 1500 yards in a season would fall that much in over all stats. I mean at least keep him at the same if anything but droping in down six points after a season like that specialy since he was a back up. I just don;t see the reason behind some of this progression madden dose. yes he was like his 7th or 8th season but it should have at least kept him in at least 72 or 73

[Klue516]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

So you never heard of a player that put up great numbers one year, only to tumble back down to earth the next?

[truffleshuffle]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

So you never heard of a player that put up great numbers one year, only to tumble back down to earth the next?

thats not what I am taking about. after the great year if they fall flat on there face sure drop there over all stats but at least give them a chance. It dropped the stats even before the first game of preseason. When I went to reorder the depth chart he was at the bottom at a 68 over all and two guys that never even saw the field jumped up 5 points and even mendenhall got up 3 points and he was on IR all but half of the first quarter of the very first game.

[juggalotusx]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

So you never heard of a player that put up great numbers one year, only to tumble back down to earth the next?

It shouldnt matter he still produced at the top of his game even if he was getting older and having that kind of year he should have went up like 5 to 8 points in my opinion.

This is why Madden needs to go back to the drawing boards with the way players progress. It needs to be based on player performence and I dont care what any one thinks. They have players rated really low at the start of the year but then if they do really good at the end of the year they are at the 90s when they do updates so why doesnt that work with there franchise progression it makes no sense. I hate how they keep players in line with that potential crap. No one can perdict how a player is going to perform in there career. It depends on there work ethic,heart and determination period.... If I have a RB that has 1500 yards and 16 TDs he needs to be in the 90s if he has 8 tds and 1000 yards in the low 80s.

[mmorg]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

It shouldnt matter he still produced at the top of his game even if he was getting older and having that kind of year he should have went up like 5 to 8 points in my opinion.

This is why Madden needs to go back to the drawing boards with the way players progress. It needs to be based on player performence and I dont care what any one thinks. They have players rated really low at the start of the year but then if they do really good at the end of the year they are at the 90s when they do updates so why doesnt that work with there franchise progression it makes no sense. I hate how they keep players in line with that potential crap. No one can perdict how a player is going to perform in there career. It depends on there work ethic,heart and determination period.... If I have a RB that has 1500 yards and 16 TDs he needs to be in the 90s if he has 8 tds and 1000 yards in the low 80s.

The ratings the EA gives to players are completely reactionary though and based upon their opinions. Once you start a franchise in Madden those ratings are the absolute fact of what you are getting when you sign a player to your team. The way ratings work in a franchise and how they change due to progression is a completely different model than how ratings change during in-season roster updates. The progression model has plenty of flaws, but by allowing players to randomly get worse or randomly get better it does have a more realistic portrayal of how players get better or worse from season to season in the NFL. Having a performance based progression system just leads to tons of problems a few years into a franchise.

[juggalotusx]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

Dont understand how that would be a problem a few years down the road in franchise when you cannot control every player?To me it would even out nicely with starters in the 80s to 90s and back ups in the 60s and 70s since they dont get much play time. This is why they need positional coaches in madden that can make player potential go from a C to a B rating depending of the coach and so on or even say a WR coach can give you +3 catch or +2 speed, +4 aware depending on there specialty. I just think it needs to be redone instead of there guessing...

[CerebrumMusica]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

It shouldnt matter he still produced at the top of his game even if he was getting older and having that kind of year he should have went up like 5 to 8 points in my opinion.

If I have a RB that has 1500 yards and 16 TDs he needs to be in the 90s if he has 8 tds and 1000 yards in the low 80s.

I see where you are coming from, but it really doesn't make sense for it to work that way in this game. If you rushed for 1500yds and 16tds, how many yards are you going to rush for with a rating in the 90's the next season? 2200yds and 20+ tds? Does he need to get better if he already put up those types of numbers with his current rating?

Moore is also 30 years old, the dreaded age for a running back. Not many RB's progress once they hit 30.

[juggalotusx]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

I understad what you are saying with the 30 + age RBs going down hill or any player that does alot of hitting for that matter with the exception of a very few. All Im saying is that I think its unfair how EA can label a player with a B rating or even a C and then if that player performes at a high level for multiiple years he is cheated by never reaching the 90s, I mean it really doesnt matter in madden but if your gonna have that type of system make it work better. We all know Overalls dont mean much in madden. I just think if a player plays at a high level he should be rewarded and not held back by a stupid potential.

[truffleshuffle]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

I see where you are coming from, but it really doesn't make sense for it to work that way in this game. If you rushed for 1500yds and 16tds, how many yards are you going to rush for with a rating in the 90's the next season? 2200yds and 20+ tds? Does he need to get better if he already put up those types of numbers with his current rating?

Moore is also 30 years old, the dreaded age for a running back. Not many RB's progress once they hit 30.

sure he was getting long in the tooth but he should of at least stayed in the 70s if anything specialy after that kind of season and then could be dropped down if his production fell in the next season but to just be dropped to the bottom of the depth chart.

[mjhyankees]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

For the sake of realism, you are all wrong for the most part. Think about it. If you want his ovr to go up after a good season what has changed? What exactly should go up because of his great season? Did he suddenly get faster? Stronger? Have better ball carrier vision? A better stiff arm or juke move? Awareness?

Really vision and awareness off the top of my head are the only things that COULD go up. Maybe strength if they hit the weights harder. But speed and other attributes generally don't change unless they go down. Sad to say but his drop (and I'd be curious where the drop was- speed?) makes sense for a 30 year old running back.

Awareness and vision, i could see going up for a YOUNG player who is improving but generally guys DON't get faster or much stronger or more agile over the years...if anything they are less than what they were in their rookie season. Awareness and vision and stuff like that COULD go up but that's far from a guarantee...how many real life players come in with potential based on their physical skills and never improve or drop out of the league a few years later because they don't improve in the mental side of the game. In general the mental side of the game is not going up after year 7....if he's not got it by then it'd be extremely unusual for a guy to develop SMARTS at that point.

Remember these guys are at their PHYSICAL PEAKS for the most part coming out of college....some get a little bigger or stronger but certainly not speed or agility (except for some rare exceptions). What makes a guy better in his 4th year than his rookie year are mental things: awareness, vision, etc.

Look at Peyton Hillis...it turns out Madden 12 would have been dead on in lowering most of his numbers going into this year (based on injury or wear and tear or attitude etc.). People would have screamed early on about him dropping to a 75 ovr but in the end they would have been right on. He went from sensation to backup RB in one year.

Sorry but IMO not only did Madden nail it on this issue with Moore, but really the only progression we should see in guys is the mental side, with some slight physical stuff sometimes (strength and things like that).

BTW this is what I liked about the idea of preseason workouts. You could work on a guy's awareness or strength. But most things aren't going to change physically...if anything they go down in real life over time.

[truffleshuffle]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

For the sake of realism, you are all wrong for the most part. Think about it. If you want his ovr to go up after a good season what has changed? What exactly should go up because of his great season? Did he suddenly get faster? Stronger? Have better ball carrier vision? A better stiff arm or juke move? Awareness?

Really vision and awareness off the top of my head are the only things that COULD go up. Maybe strength if they hit the weights harder. But speed and other attributes generally don't change unless they go down. Sad to say but his drop (and I'd be curious where the drop was- speed?) makes sense for a 30 year old running back.

Awareness and vision, i could see going up for a YOUNG player who is improving but generally guys DON't get faster or much stronger or more agile over the years...if anything they are less than what they were in their rookie season. Awareness and vision and stuff like that COULD go up but that's far from a guarantee...how many real life players come in with potential based on their physical skills and never improve or drop out of the league a few years later because they don't improve in the mental side of the game. In general the mental side of the game is not going up after year 7....if he's not got it by then it'd be extremely unusual for a guy to develop SMARTS at that point.

Remember these guys are at their PHYSICAL PEAKS for the most part coming out of college....some get a little bigger or stronger but certainly not speed or agility (except for some rare exceptions). What makes a guy better in his 4th year than his rookie year are mental things: awareness, vision, etc.

Look at Peyton Hillis...it turns out Madden 12 would have been dead on in lowering most of his numbers going into this year (based on injury or wear and tear or attitude etc.). People would have screamed early on about him dropping to a 75 ovr but in the end they would have been right on. He went from sensation to backup RB in one year.

Sorry but IMO not only did Madden nail it on this issue with Moore, but really the only progression we should see in guys is the mental side, with some slight physical stuff sometimes (strength and things like that).

BTW this is what I liked about the idea of preseason workouts. You could work on a guy's awareness or strength. But most things aren't going to change physically...if anything they go down in real life over time.

I am not saying he should go much maybe a point or two and at the very least after a season like that at least stay the same or maybe a point down but to drop six points is a bit much. it didnt happen to just moore he was just the extream of it I had a wide out in his 4th year go from 81 to 79 after a great year the next season. I just don;t get some of the progressions. I am not griping about a older player loosing a step it happens in real life but to take a guy that put up those kind of stats and at the end of the year he is basicly cannon fodder for the cut days is just crazy.

[mjhyankees]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

I am not saying he should go much maybe a point or two and at the very least after a season like that at least stay the same or maybe a point down but to drop six points is a bit much. it didnt happen to just moore he was just the extream of it I had a wide out in his 4th year go from 81 to 79 after a great year the next season. I just don;t get some of the progressions. I am not griping about a older player loosing a step it happens in real life but to take a guy that put up those kind of stats and at the end of the year he is basicly cannon fodder for the cut days is just crazy.

I stand by my statements but your point about HOW MUCH a player should regress or progress is worthy of debate. I suspect this is one of those areas no one will totally agree on. I have no issue with what happened in your chise in that the type of season a player had, does NOTHING to change his physical or mental attributes in real life. But should ANYONE drop 6 points in one year? That's debatable.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

If the OVR was truly a team value based rating, then a lot of these issues wouldn't even come up, imo.

Anyway, I believe that the simple fix is to have a rating that determines how valuable a player thinks he is based on stats and another for how valuable teams think the player is based on the team's system, personnel, the player's ratings and the player's self value rating.

That way you have the best of both worlds, certain ratings that are effected by stats and others that are not.

Also, just to put it out there, skill, physical and mental ratings in the game are supposed to represent each player's limitations, IN THOSE SPECIFIC AREAS, not directly dictate what each player can accomplish as a whole. So a 6'4 230 pound NFL WR that runs a 4.60, will not likely get any taller, faster or much lighter but they can still utilize what they have to the best of their ability.

[Ueauvan]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

ok how about look at it another way

ovr usually determines if you are 1st/2nd string etc. ovr impacts the deal you make years/money/bonus etc.

so why not seperate ovr from stats. guys that play well get some stats improved. ovr becomes a production indicator actual or projected. do well over a season your production is higher so your ovr goes up etc

production was good in hc09 and this could be a fix for 12

[Argooos]

Re: player progressing droping over all stats of player after great season?

If you don't like the way a player has progressed in franchise mode, edit him until you're happy. Simple as that.

In my franchise (32 team control), at the end of the season I make the offensive and defensive players of the year 99 OVR. I also make any player who reaches the Pro Bowl 90 OVR. I then look through the remaining players who were already 90+ and see if, based on their stats, they actually deserve such a rating (and change them accordingly). Also, throughout the season, I award consistent exceptional performance (over a period of 4-6 games) with a +5 OVR increase and I punish consistent poor performance with a -5 OVR decrease. I should note that I never increase or decrease physical attributes. To make these OVR adjustments, I change things like AWR and Play Recognition.


But, a separate "Value" rating would solve this issue. Your star running back would have a high value, but he would still drop to a 68 OVR. This of course would work better if OVR was actually just a best guess based on the skills of your coaches and scouts. Then you would have to actually use the player, and for each down you play him, the coaches and scouts get a better idea of what his OVR actually is. It'd maybe take a few hundred downs played before you could say with any certainty what a player's OVR is.