Run/Pass Commit In Madden NFL 13 - Make it More Realistic

[LBzrule]

In episode 230 of Madden Daily, Sgibs revealed that run/pass commit is in Madden 13. Check the video out here:

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Also I've already submitted this to the appropriate folks at EA. But this is where the community comes in. If they don't see a big reaction they are not going to address it. So you guys need to chime in. I don't want the Run/Pass Commit in Madden 13 to be like NCAA which is an all or nothing affair and which also does not focus on gap control/force/containment. To me this is EA's chance right here to do something really great. To see run/pass commit in action in Madden 13 see this video: Browns vs Seahawks.

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7:18 in this video you see run commit left. I don't like it like this. I don't like the complete nullification of the defensive play called and having everyone sell out. Here is what I sent to the devs.
Can you guys make the following tweaks:

1. The run commit only activates against run plays. This way it operates more like a run fit, which is more realistic than having complete sell outs against the run and plays into their read and react defense theme. Allow Play Recognition to govern whether guys bite on Play Action.

2. When committing left or right, edge defenders; DE's and 3-4 OLB should step up the field and set the edge.

3. All other defenders in the front seven, with the exception of the backside DE or OLB, should simply attack the next gap over.

4. Backside DE/OLB should step up field first as if he is looking for boot action or reverse, then trail the play.

So for the 3-4 for instance you would have something like this

In the above diagram you have the defense in the base 3-4 with the DE's in 5 and the NT head up center. As the diagram shows, all the guys are going to do is hit the next gap over. So if I go run commit right then the DLine should look like this from left to right. B A C. RDE takes backside B gap; NT takes right side A gap; LDE takes right side C gap. RILB has backside A gap, and LILB has front side B gap. Edge players step up and set on the right side; back side player steps into the back field checking for backside boot, reverse and playing cutback. So that would actually look like the following:

Notice the NT LDE and RDE. Based on their alignment they are only going to fire to the next gap over. Also whether the offense runs right or left, there will always be a backside player.

Let's take some other examples from the 4-3 Stack and Over

4-3 Stack

Run commit left here (might be different since the direction is based on looking at the screen and this diagram is at the back of the defense, but you should get the picture)would have Duckett/Seawright firing to C, Jospeh firing to A, Strahan stepping up field to set edge, Osi stepping up field backside looking for boot, reverse, if neither are there trail the play down the line. Pierce has left A then scrape, Arrington left B then scrape (I only advocate this for Madden since all they can probably do is get guys to fire to the next gap over. In real life Duckett Seawright would have B and Arrington would have C) Emmons backside B then scrape.

4-3 Over

Let's go run commit to the right from the backside of the defense. Strahan, backside contain player looking for boot, reverse and then just trailing play; Joseph to A; Duckett/Seawright to B; Osi Fire to C. Arrington checks C; Pierce Check A; In Madden Emmons would be on the line of scrimmage so, Fire up field and set edge.

I would also hope it is clear that run commit does not automatically mean that I stop the run even if I have the "right" fit call. It should mean a great deal given certain offensive plays. For tosses it should work great if I have the right call. But against a wide zone, it should be less automatic because if the linebackers run outta there too quick, cutback lanes should be there, especially if the back side guy over pursues.

This is very important. Please do not have the defenders just arbitrarily running right and left. Have them hit gaps, step up and set the edge, play backside contain, pursuit. This is a chance to do something really nice for run defense IMO.

Pass commit. Can this be used to change the rush angles and engage points of the DE's/3-4 OLB's with the OT's. Can we get the engage point much deeper and closer to the Qb as he is dropping?

[BezO]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I was hoping that the days of EA implementing features without setting the foundation was over. Ehh well for that.

About the only thing I liked in that vid at the 7:18 mark was that the defenders seem completed detached from the offense in that they had an assignment and went with it. But I can't think of a situation where an entire defensive front would bite on something that wasn't even faked. That reaction would be perfect if play action were run in that direction.

This looks like someone that doesn't understand the game trying to duplicate what they think they saw on TV.

[ch46647]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

What exactly does pass commit do? Does it only effect the D-line? I am actually happy they added this back in.

I wish they would tune the pass commit to MAKE DE's aggressively rush up field. This would make the entire feature worth it IMO.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I was hoping that the days of EA implementing features without setting the foundation was over. Ehh well for that.

About the only thing I liked in that vid at the 7:18 mark was that the defenders seem completed detached from the offense in that they had an assignment and went with it. But I can't think of a situation where an entire defensive front would bite on something that wasn't even faked. That reaction would be perfect if play action were run in that direction.

This looks like someone that doesn't understand the game trying to duplicate what they think they saw on TV.

Yeah that was the only thing I liked about it. The defensive players had an assignment (go left although it is arbitrary) and went there. My biggest problem was the assignments. They were not gap based. They just fired way too far out of the way. They just need to be simple and take the next gap over. Edge players need to step up and set it and back side guys need to look for boot/reverse then trail the play if it goes away from them. That play at the 7:18 mark just had guys arbitrarily running left with no gap assignments in mind and I do not like that at all.

[deacon21206]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

It should be an all out gamble. Not a contain every aspect of the run type scenario. Why because you can't do that in real life. Sure players can read and react, but that alone should net a positive gain for the run because the defense has to decipher what is going on. If olb's are playing the edge then then a play up the middle should net 3 to 5 yards because they don't get to help in time. I like the guessing game and strategy of letting it fly. Look at teams like the ravens or the steelers who play that type of defense. They target gaps and hit them hard. They are aggressive and pays out at times and they miss out at times. If you commit to the run it is no longer a read and react it is an attack. If you guess left there isn't a fail safe for just in case. You bet it all you should stand the chance to lose it all Just hope that the commit features are worth using and not over done. Where they dominate the game. Like if you pass commit it doesn't mean you have every route covered. It just means you are looking for that first. We will see what this year brings.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

@LBz-For the longest time, I wanted Madden to add in the NCAA system, because it seemed to be the only way to get the defensive ends to fire off the ball, but you are absolutely right in the point you've always held that this is a band-aide. I still think a feature like this has a place on a limited basis in that there are situations where I want my defenders to sell out, but my problem is that this just feels like users are going to use this as the foundation of their defensive scheme instead of focusing on making sound defensive playcalls. And that leads me to a bigger issue in that, as of right now, Madden seems to be content with that when I think it should be just the opposite. I think the game should be forcing its players to play smarter. Make us to learn where a Cover 2 defense's weakness is against certain runs and where the help is, instead of just calling anything and hedging your bets with a run commit.

When this topic came up a few months ago, I was hoping I would see a more comprehensive "grease board" type of feature similar to NBA 2K's clipboard where you could make real sideline adjustments to schemes. This is a little disappointing in that it feels a little too elementary to me. It feels like we should be pass this.

I'm down to give EA a piece of my mind on this. Who and where do I have to send my comments? Can you post the info LBz, or pm if that's cool.

[Senator Palmer]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

What exactly does pass commit do? Does it only effect the D-line? I am actually happy they added this back in.

I wish they would tune the pass commit to MAKE DE's aggressively rush up field. This would make the entire feature worth it IMO.

In NCAA, I believe that it made the defensive backs less likely to bite on PA -- although I'm not 100% sure. I'm also not sure if it had any extra effects like making coverage more effective. I never saw any of that when I played, though.

What I know it did do on the defensive line was to make the linemen more likely to jump the snap and trigger an instant win against the offensive line. The problem I saw in NCAA was that it never really hurt me in the run game. Draws were still defended well, and the same for outside runs and screens.

I'm not quite sure how it would work in Madden since they took the jump the snap feature out years ago. Maybe they added it back in. I don't know. I like that there's a possibility that the 4 man pass rush would be more effective, but I HATE that something like this is necessary to do it.

[BezO]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Yeah that was the only thing I liked about it. The defensive players had an assignment (go left although it is arbitrary) and went there. My biggest problem was the assignments. They were not gap based. They just fired way too far out of the way. They just need to be simple and take the next gap over. Edge players need to step up and set it and back side guys need to look for boot/reverse then trail the play if it goes away from them. That play at the 7:18 mark just had guys arbitrarily running left with no gap assignments in mind and I do not like that at all.

Maybe there's hope. If they can disconnect the defense from the offense like that, maybe they can do it for ALL plays and change the aim points so they're headed right for their gap.

What I'd like to see is run commit make d-linemen less concerned about rushing the QB and more concerned about manning their gap... basically read & react mode, waiting to use the disengage move that doesn't exist yet. If they offense passes, it should slow the rush, sort of like what they have now. Pass committ could do the opposite, have the d-linemen more concerned about getting up field, using pass rush moves, etc.

What they have for run committ now is more like a d-line slant that, like you said, goes too far out of the way, just like their stunts. I guess the same guy is programming both.

Run committ for LBs shouldn't do much since they're looking run 1st any way... maybe make them more susceptible to play action. Pass commit could put them in immediate read & react mode, not stepping up looking for the run but getting back into their zones quicker & less susceptible to play action.

Run committ shouldn't affect DBs much, maybe make the SS more susceptible to play action. Pass commit for DBs should do nothing since they're looking pass 1st.

[JerzeyReign]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

No offense, but this seems to technical to implement, at least for this year. Plus, not every LB/DE react the same, you would have to dig into player/position tendencies. If you have a DE like Trent Cole, his only mission is to drop the QB. But then you have a run stuffing DE like Justin Smith. I know they have different schemes (Philly is a 4-3 while SF is a 3-4) but they both won't react the same. Cole will still try to get up field (to turn the play back inside) and Smith will try to push the line back to have the play running from East to West.

If they have players with position tendencies first, then maybe a more 'technical' scheme like this will work.

To fix this current 'Run Blitz' animation jazz, if they have the linemen just move over to the gap to whatever side they are cheating to, it'll look a little better. Linebackers should scrape to whatever direction the play is flowing, therefore that allows misdirection to have a deadly effect. They have to balance it someway. For pass commit, players first goal should be dropping into their zone or locating their man -- in NCAA it seems as if they just stand there like normal, not really giving an advantage to the draw.

But at the end of the day, I'll support this idea. Now that they're coming around to #SimNation, maybe we'll see how deep they're willing to go.

Good idea.

[KBLover]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

No offense, but this seems to technical to implement, at least for this year. Plus, not every LB/DE react the same, you would have to dig into player/position tendencies. If you have a DE like Trent Cole, his only mission is to drop the QB. But then you have a run stuffing DE like Justin Smith. I know they have different schemes (Philly is a 4-3 while SF is a 3-4) but they both won't react the same. Cole will still try to get up field (to turn the play back inside) and Smith will try to push the line back to have the play running from East to West.

If they have players with position tendencies first, then maybe a more 'technical' scheme like this will work.

I would argue the reverse. Get the technical aspects working, then vary the player's responses/execution based on traits in their DPP and ratings. Get the game "to think these terms" when it's resolving plays and the tendencies would be that much more impacting and meaningful while also allowing players who "play by the book" to execute more correctly as well.

Getting the front seven working and playing right would make the tendencies possible. Then when you see someone like Cole "playing 4-3" in a 3-4 scheme, you're compelled to either switch to 4-3, ship Cole off, or try him at 3-4 OLB or just deal with it and try to make it work in your own version of the 3-4. Maybe you'll have a way to make the MLB/Jack work like the 3-4 DE instead, scout bigger OLBs and work your scheme that way, etc.

Things like that are possible, imo, only when the foundation of the front seven is in place.

It'll also look more like a freelancer in the midst of a team-oriented scheme instead of just yet another example of bad gameplay.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

It should be an all out gamble. Not a contain every aspect of the run type scenario. Why because you can't do that in real life. Sure players can read and react, but that alone should net a positive gain for the run because the defense has to decipher what is going on. If olb's are playing the edge then then a play up the middle should net 3 to 5 yards because they don't get to help in time. I like the guessing game and strategy of letting it fly. Look at teams like the ravens or the steelers who play that type of defense. They target gaps and hit them hard. They are aggressive and pays out at times and they miss out at times. If you commit to the run it is no longer a read and react it is an attack. If you guess left there isn't a fail safe for just in case. You bet it all you should stand the chance to lose it all Just hope that the commit features are worth using and not over done. Where they dominate the game. Like if you pass commit it doesn't mean you have every route covered. It just means you are looking for that first. We will see what this year brings.

Let me respond to your comments this way. One, I think you are looking at this from the perspective of Madden/NCAA and not from the standpoint of fundamental read and react defensive football. I will be happy to retract such a statement if you can show me via evidence through some coach or footage that what you are talking about is the case. I can give you countless sources that show that what you are talking about is NOT the case. Second, which is tied to the first comment, I think we are talking about two different things. Third, I think the language of commit might be throwing things off.

First. From the perspective of Madden/NCAA it's always about win and lose and there is no in between. You pick X. I pick Y. Your DE is 92 my OT is 79. Someone/Something is going to win and the other is going to lose. That's way to simplistic and it's just not how football works. Being coached and coaching linebackers it has always been on your read step, read your keys, if the key shows you run then you have a place to go. If the key shows you pass then drop back into coverage. I think this is how this feature should work. The game does not have gap assignments. This would be a "shortcut" way to have something the game does not have, which would be another additional plus.

What you are saying is defensive football is not assignment based and that is just now how most coordinators and players understand it. What I'm saying here is that this feature can be a shortcut to have actually assignments against the run on defense. Otherwise, it is freestyle wheeling and dealing. You don't know who is going where, you can't trust anyone to have back or front side support. It's just random. Nobody in the NFL, NCAA, High School plays that way on a consistent basis. Show me some footage of this. I can show anyone plenty of footage and even break down calls of what I'm talking about. Ultimately, what it boils down to is EA is touting read and react defense in their game this year. Using this feature could enhance that understanding in a realistic way tremendously.

Second, I think we are talking about two different things. From what I read, you are talking about gambling in certain situations. I'm talking about fundamentals of defense. Defensive football players always read first before reacting. Even when they are blitzing they just don't blindly run to an area. They read the lineman and look to see how his body is positioned. Can they get the outside or inside shoulder. Nobody ever blindly guesses on anything.

Third, the language commit might be a problem. In what I'm advocating it's not really a problem. I'm advocating read and react defense, which is what EA is touting this year. No coach on any level teaches commit without a read first. When it's read and react. And the react = commit. You show me instances of players committing without reading first and chances are they are not even in the league. Show me one play where a player committing to something without reading it first. You can get the Ray Lewis play on Sproles and I will tell you Lewis read and diagnosed the play first then he gambled/committed. HE even said so in the post game interview. It was something he saw on film based on formation and Guard splits. HE read that and then committed. You can show me the play where Polomalu jumped over a pile to stop the run. He still read the play before he committed to it. There is never JUST COMMIT. Commit = REACT. But you can't react intelligently until you READ.

[PGaither84]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

I want to sign on.

I just want to throw in that biting on fakes with play recognition is SO important. Madden on last gen was over the top with this at times, but I'll take that over what we have now.

Also, tied into this is the camera. I am not sure about Madden 12 let alone 13, but Last gen did a good job with play fakes to try and fool the opposing users as well. Not only would players bite on a play fake by attackign the HB on a play action or the FB on a Fake FB Drive HB Pitch, but the camera and control icon faked you out too.

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I don't want to derail this topic and I will start a new thread, but these are tied together.

[LBzrule]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

Let me add. There are still weaknesses in what I wrote here. If the run is going opposite the direction I have my guys reacting, there is only one guy there along with a CB. Even on certain runs going to the side I have my guys reacting, cut back lanes should be possible if you are running zone plays. This is where the EA conditioning has people stuck in thinking. They have developed the game to where if you guys right then you auto stop the run. To me that's not how it should be. If it is a toss right and I have my guys committing right then I might stop the toss. But if it is a wide zone right and I have my guys committing right then that should actually hurt me on the cut back somewhere. Some lane should be open. Inside Zone = same thing. Something should be open via the cut back and if the linebackers get out of there too quickly it should really be open. Counters = same thing. One back side defender who will get blocked then having one or two pulling blockers = trouble. There are still weaknesses even in what I typed, it's just more fundamental and true to life than just having guys arbitrarily run left or right with no sense of what they are doing.

[PGaither84]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

This looks like someone that doesn't understand the game trying to duplicate what they think they saw on TV.

And I think that's why you and I weren't invited back to CD events

I couldn't "like" that comment hard enough, so I made this post to say thank you even more.

[Jimi XIII]

Re: Run/Pass Commit IN Madden 13 Make it More Realistic

To me, it's just a band aid for not having adaptive AI. But I guess it's okay though. It'd be nice if this also meant bringing back the RS to guide receivers or blocks to a specific location again.