It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

[roll2tide]

IMHO, this is the big thin EA should focus on for NextGen. They've had a variety of "new" engines designed to replicate real time physics(most efforts have failed-animations are still scripted), they've improved OL/DL play a little, passing control has improved the past few years, there's been slight improvements in roster/team management AI, etc. While Madden still has some glaring flaws, most areas of the game have improved at least somewhat over the course of the 360/PS3 generation.

NextGen should be all about instincts and strategy AI. I just loaded up a game on default All madden and did the same thing I do every year--see what i can do every time vs the CPU. Played a game where I ran nothing but I-Form stretch play every down. Won easily. Played a game where I ran I-Form slants every down. Won easily. Out routes? Automatic. Hitch/Curl? Automatic. Deep outside come backs? Automatic.

It isn't that the players themselves can't defend these routes. They can. IF the CPU calls the right play which it rarely does. High AWR players should start baiting me into throwing these comfortable routes after time. They should jump routes. They should jump gaps and running lanes.

On offense the AI should notice that I'm playing man cover 0 all game (both FS and SS set to hook zones) and beat me deep. Or that I'm playing cover 3 every down. The AI should make me think.

IMO, this is the next step forward for Madden. The AI needs to learn, adapt, anticipate, and play/exploit basic situational football.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

While I completely agree with the op and have been a strong advocate for adaptive AI, we have to consider the alternate universe that Madden evidently exists in. There have been numerous discussions about adaptive AI surrounding Madden and the overwhelming reason against it is that it is seen by Tiburon and their supporters as the game playing itself.

Doesn't matter how ridiculous any number of us personally believe that notion is or that other games have and continue to embrace adaptive AI, this is Madden, made by Tiburon we are talking about. They seem to pride themselves on doing things their way and they have a cult like following that will support almost anything they choose to do, as long as the game remains "Madden", not to mention they have the rest of us bent over a barrel with the NFL exclusive.

[gr18]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

It's becoming more apparent that being that they consider themselves having a high quality product that they don't want to apply anything but tweaks to what exists due to the reasoning that they may 'break' something and don't want to take the risk.

[TheBuddyHobbs]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

It's been 8 years and we are still waiting for this... *sigh*

[SA1NT401]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

WILL NEVER SEE THAT..... Why? Because 90% of maddens audience is casual arcade football gamers..,. NOT football fans. They want no penalties and 45-42 scores every single game.

We the sim crowd make up maybe 8-10% if that. Who do u think they listen to or care about? 90%.... Or the worthless 10%?

As long as there is exclusivity, we are never gonna get a great product that caters to both like NBA2K and THE SHOW.

[ghettogeeksta]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

Maybe next gen, the are touting human like a.i. with this Ignite engine, let's hope it lives up to the hype.

[roll2tide]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

I agree with all of your comments, I appreciate them, and I dispute nothing that has been said.

Having said that, I would like to see us push this via the GameChangers (I know, I know--that's a different thread and topic) and in any threads where a dev asks about changes for next year. As I progress through my CFM season, the CPU should essentially have "game film" on me. Leading WR, leading rusher, 3rd down consistencies, 1st down consistencies, etc--on both sides of the ball. Needing a stop vs 3rd & short, I tend to all out blitz. The CPU QB, if AWR enough, should have a sight adjustment that allows him to audible to a deep route vs man cover 0.

I wouldn't want this done via "hidden" player AI boosts--that's the cheap way out. That's typical Madden "innovativeness". If my drafted QB is a P Manning type and I dominate the division 2-3 years then my divisional opponents should start drafting and building stud CBs and a great DL. If I've got AP back there logging 2000 yards a season then teams should build to counter that. Keep the franchise dynamic throughout the season and from year to year.

I'm not talking specific player AI...I'm OK to bring that along slower...but play calling/coaching AI, and GM AI should be taking big steps forward on NextGen. This would not complicate on the field player involvement. Coordinators could/would heavily affect this as well.

This is my personal NextGen hope for Madden.

[ggsimmonds]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

Sure, because we don't see enough people complaining that the AI knows their play. And lets not kid ourselves, half of OS members would equate adaptive AI with AI cheating.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

@roll2tide, let play devil's advocate to your last post and hopefully underline the issue with the current "games should be played" pov around Madden.

Even if the AI were just improved for situational and adaptive playcalling, then that would mean "ask Madden" and Gameflow would also have those abilities for a User. Of course people will say "make it an option", on for the CPU but off for Users, yet we know how unlikely that is given Tiburon's track record. So again it comes down to things in the game being at odds with the overall prospective that User control is paramount and the game shouldn't play itself.

To put it plainly, this odd focus on making and keeping Madden this User v User purist title, is putting it at odds with any amount of sensible adaptive AI, across the board.

[roll2tide]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

Sure, because we don't see enough people complaining that the AI knows their play. And lets not kid ourselves, half of OS members would equate adaptive AI with AI cheating.

There is a difference between a CB running the route 1/2 step ahead of the WR and that same DB cheating inside because I've run 4 slant routes on 3rd & 6 or less so far in the game or on 41% of all 3rd & 6s so far this season.

Coaching AI could both be tied to difficulty level and have a slider so the casual user can still score 147 points per game if so desired.

[Introvese]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

This casual gamer crap pisses me off. I see 2k hoops and the effort of their devlopers. They cater to both crowds sim/casual gamers. Not sayin 2k hoops is perfect. But atleast they hav a Simulation slider making attempt of rea bball. For christ sakes 2k has a kick ball violation. Im so sick of players not adjusting. Hell if Ea just going to be lazy. Make my db warp thru a wr if the same play/hot route is called 100% of the time. Make my Wr teleport after three seconds of standing still. Do something Ea just to show u are trying. Im so frustrated by Madden. Even tho 2k hoops is miles ahead of Madden in terms of quality. Nothing is better than the chess match of football. Cam turn this around

[ggsimmonds]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

There is a difference between a CB running the route 1/2 step ahead of the WR and that same DB cheating inside because I've run 4 slant routes on 3rd & 6 or less so far in the game or on 41% of all 3rd & 6s so far this season.

Coaching AI could both be tied to difficulty level and have a slider so the casual user can still score 147 points per game if so desired.

I agree. I do very much want to see adaptive AI implemented in the game, probably just as much as you do.

But I am very skeptical that we will get our wish. The majority of us are not the brilliant football minds that we think we are and even more of the consumer base are casual gamers. Now I hate to say this, but the truth is that it is not worth EA's time and resources to implement this level of AI. Programming that kind of AI is probably very challenging and the best AI developers tend not to work on sports titles. Hell the current team can't figure out how to stop the AI from calling screen passes every 3rd and long.

In the ideal world though difficulty level should only affect the intelligence of the AI, not attributes.

But if they did introduce adaptive AI, we both know that this board will see a lot of people complaining that the AI is too much of a genius and the result will be a neutering of the AI. If you don't know why I say this, search any thread or ask any poster about their "money plays."
Playing in an online franchise the most important thing is figuring out how to stop your rival's money plays. Take away our money plays and most of us suck (though most will never admit to this)

[LBzrule]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

Even if they do not do adaptive A.I, they need to have defenders have better field awareness and know where their help is. Having a guy hit the HB on the 3 yard line then having a Dumb A$$ get behind the HB and help tackle him into the endzone is terrible field awareness for defensive players. It's inside the five, everyone should be getting low and pushing things back, not helping guys score.

Also NEXT gen they need to untether the OL and DL. They are still tethered very much so in Madden 25.

[Big FN Deal]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

Even if they do not do adaptive A.I, they need to have defenders have better field awareness and know where their help is. Having a guy hit the HB on the 3 yard line then having a Dumb A$$ get behind the HB and help tackle him into the endzone is terrible field awareness for defensive players. It's inside the five, everyone should be getting low and pushing things back, not helping guys score.

Also NEXT gen they need to untether the OL and DL. They are still tethered very much so in Madden 25.

Now maybe this is the type of situational AI they are touting for the new consoles because I highly doubt its' adaptive AI. Considering in the M25 for new consoles footage we have seen, AP was pointing out players for blockers to block and the OL allegedly reacting to pass rush threats on the fly, something like posted above seems in line with that. As long as it's something like this that they can implement across the board in a cookie cutter fashion, it makes sense that Tiburon could add it.

[supdog]

Re: It's time for adaptive, intuitive, situational AI play calling

If you ever played the last madden and ncaa for ps2 you will see that the cpu will try to stop certain things with defensive and offensive hot routes. While the adjustments do not always stop the play the ai will try and use everything the human uses. In those versions when a hot route is called hum or cpu it flashes on the screen what hot route was called. I know programming is hard but come on if you hire the right people it can be done.