2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

[LetsGoBucs]

Well fellow Bucco fans, what do you think? Record setting year for our beloved Bucs?

It was nice to see them sign McLouth, but when McLouth, Doumit, and Maholm are described as the team's "Big 3", then I'm worried. I think this team still has a few more losing seasons in them before we see if the changes the organization made pay off (i.e., more Latin American scouting, drafting players not based on agent, etc.). I really hope the players they got in the Bay/Nady/Marte deals pan out, because if not, it is going to get even uglier.

[renatus]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

the once promising young rotation stumbled badly in 2008..can they recover?

also..where is the big bat in this lineup?

i think BP prediction of 3 less wins than last year might be true.....

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Their "big three", I'm sorry but it's just laughable. Doumit is never ever healthy, and a terrible defensive catcher. His bat looked good last season, but who knows how long that lasts.

They have absolutely nothing for starting pitching, next to Paul Maholm, and who knows if he'll even be good next year. Their pitchers usually have a good season and then drop off the face of the Earth. Duke is maybe a number 5 starter at this point, and that's for the Pirates, I'm not sure he'd even make a good number of MLB rosters. Snell was terrible last season. Every SP they have in their farm system either sucks or needs TJ surgery or is just coming off of TJ surgery.

The fact is, they really dropped the ball with the Bay/Nady trades. They had two really hot commodities, and they got **** for them. Especially in the Nady deal. The Bay deal, I felt they did OK, but they could of did better. The Nady deal they got the Yankees like, 5th best prospect. And then generally nothing besides it.

The Bay deal, the biggest piece was supposed to be Andy LaRoche, who couldn't even get starting time last season over Blake DeWitt for the Dodgers. I get that he was once a top prospect in baseball, but over the past two seasons, he hasn't done anything at all in the major leagues. I'm optimistic that he could still pan out, but who knows, he'll have to do it by himself since it's not like the Pirates have good coaching for young players or anything. They've ruined more young prospects than any system in baseball.

The Bay deal was OK though, they got LaRoche and Moss, who could both be solid players, then a decent pitching prospect. The Nady deal was just bad though.

Realistically, you don't even need to have a Pirates 2009 discussion though. Since they aren't even in "the" discussion. At this point, a fourth place finish would be a huge victory for them. They're just the definition of pathetic, and they don't have to be either. I feel so bad for the players on their team, since some of them try so hard, but they work for people who shouldn't even be allowed to run a sports team, since they only do so to turn a profit and nothing else. They aren't in it to compete, they've made that more than clear. Their whole "fire sale" Marlins/A's approach might work, if they actually targeted top prospects in baseball and built their farm system back up. Instead, they mostly just dumped the contracts of their best players and took mediocre prospects in return. Which is what they always do.

[ohyeahbaby123]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

^LOL.

IDK, but I'm a bit more optimistic about our pitching staff. Everything I hear about them seem to be good so far.

[mjb2124]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I don't think they'll win 70 games this year. The offense will be terrible and the starting rotation has multiple question marks. I actually had a moment of pause before last year where I thought they could possibly reach .500 (which still stinks, but is a step in the right direction). Well, not this year. This is a bad roster by the looks of it.

Frankly, I'm fed up with this organization. I've gone from having a 20-game plan in 2001 to now attending maybe 1 game per year and rarely watching them while at home. I don't go to as many games because I refuse to give Bob Nutting anymore of my money when he obviously has little interest in putting it back into the team. I was even offered to buy into a full season ticket plan at a great price this year and declined. It would be split between 3 couples (27 games a piece) and 8 rows behind the 3rd base dugout. Seeing as baseball is my favorite sport, it's been tough following the Pirates for this many years now and knowing before each season they have no shot at being successful.

Regarding the Nady/Bay trades. I didn't like either of them. Just my opinion on the trades:

Jason Bay deal:

Brandon Moss: Average player. Dime a dozen at the MLB level.
Craig Hansen: Terrific stuff...horrible control. If he ever figures out how to handle his stuff, he'll be good.
Adam LaRoche: I'm not sold on this guy. I know he's a highly touted prospect, but I have yet to see it in LA or PGH. He could be another Chad Hermansen (ie: Good in the minors, poor in the minors).
Bryan Morris: Possibly the best of the bunch. Regarded as LA's top pitching prospect until he had arm problems. He's supposed to be fully recovered. Jury is out on him.

Xavier Nady deal:

Jose Tabata: Potentially a star. Plus ratings in the 5 major categories (hitting, fielding, hitting for power, running, arm). Attitude is suspect though.
Jeff Karstens: I'm not impressed with him. I couldn't believe he nearly threw a no hitter last year with his stuff. I liken him to Zach Duke. Once the league see's him a few times, he's going to get beat because his stuff isn't good enough.
Ross Ohlendorf: I like him. Good arm, good stuff.
Dan McCutchen: I don't know much about this guy aside from having excellent control. His K/IP numbers in the minors are slightly above average, but his BB/IP ratio is outstanding. He could be a nice middle to back of the rotation starter.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

^LOL.

IDK, but I'm a bit more optimistic about our pitching staff. Everything I hear about them seem to be good so far.

Hear? Try watching them. I've been waiting for Zach Duke to live up to his hype for three terrible seasons now. I watched Ian Snell pitch like garbage all year last year. I watched Paul Maholm struggle badly for two seasons, and then finally put together a decent one last year, which was probably a fluke.

All of their number 1 draft pick pitchers are busts. They come into the minors and need TJ surgery, or the Pirates horrendous farm system ruins them, or they were just dumb picks to begin with and they don't pan out. I mean go through the list, look at all of them. None of them are where other top picks by other franchises are by this point. Not even close to where they are, for that matter. When you look at the amount of GREAT talent the Pirates have passed on in the draft over the years, and how well they've panned out in the MLB, it's just so incredibly frustrating as a fan.

Frankly, I'm fed up with this organization. I've gone from having a 20-game plan in 2001 to now attending maybe 1 game per year and rarely watching them while at home. I don't go to as many games because I refuse to give Bob Nutting anymore of my money when he obviously has little interest in putting it back into the team. I was even offered to buy into a full season ticket plan at a great price this year and declined. It would be split between 3 couples (27 games a piece) and 8 rows behind the 3rd base dugout. Seeing as baseball is my favorite sport, it's been tough following the Pirates for this many years now and knowing before each season they have no shot at being successful.

I'm in the same boat as you. Anybody who has lived in Pittsburgh and loves baseball and has tried their hardest to follow the Pirates for the past 15 years, knows exactly how it feels every season when Spring Training starts. You just don't even care anymore. You know the Nuttings will never ever try to put together a team, until the Pirates finally stop selling tickets. They're making tons of profit off of this losing team, since people go and watch regardless, so they don't give a ****. It's literally impossible to be optimistic about the Pirates anymore.

The reason the Jason Bay deal pissed me off the way it did, was that you have the Boston Red Sox farm system to pick through. Which is one of the best in baseball. They're stockpiled with talent, and out of all of that, the best you can do is Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen? Moss is a solid player, and should be a solid player, but if they really wanted to, they could of gotten someone a lot more touted than that. They had all of the cards in that trade (as well as the Nady trade), and they didn't use that to their advantage in the least.

Boston was getting rid of Manny, they were desperate for Bay. NY had no OF at the time, while Nady was having a career year, they were desperate for Nady. And you take what was a mediocre deal for both of them when you could of gotten a really sweet package. It just further goes to show how bad their management is. It's either they're downright incompetent, or they just don't care, one of the two, and neither are encouraging.

[LetsGoBucs]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

The reason the Jason Bay deal pissed me off the way it did, was that you have the Boston Red Sox farm system to pick through. Which is one of the best in baseball. They're stockpiled with talent, and out of all of that, the best you can do is Brandon Moss and Craig Hansen? Moss is a solid player, and should be a solid player, but if they really wanted to, they could of gotten someone a lot more touted than that. They had all of the cards in that trade (as well as the Nady trade), and they didn't use that to their advantage in the least.

While none of us really knows what was being talked about inside the Sox organization, I don't think Boston would open the farm system up for Bay. I live up here, and the Sox have not been emptying the farm for trades. They had the opportunity to get Santana but balked at giving up prospects like Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, etc. So while I agree that the Bucs held all the cards, I don't think Boston was going to give up much more than they did.

I, like the rest of you, see this season as being horrific. Unless Joe Kerrigan can make strides with the pitching staff, 70 wins will be a miracle. They are going to need to win games 2-1 or 3-2 because I don't see much run production out of that offense. And Adam LaRoche had better get off to a good start, or the fans are going to turn on him even more than in the past.

Ah, the joys of being a Pirate fan...

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

While none of us really knows what was being talked about inside the Sox organization, I don't think Boston would open the farm system up for Bay. I live up here, and the Sox have not been emptying the farm for trades. They had the opportunity to get Santana but balked at giving up prospects like Ellsbury, Lester, Buchholz, etc. So while I agree that the Bucs held all the cards, I don't think Boston was going to give up much more than they did.

Why not? They gave up Murphy/Gabbard to get Eric ****ing Gagne late two seasons ago. That's a better package than the Pirates got from them, for Jason Bay, a guy who is 5 times more valuable than Eric Gagne (who almost single handedly blew the Sox season). It comes down to management, and the Pirates management is terrible. They'll accept crap in trades, as long as they can dump contracts of their highest paid players.

I'm not saying the Pirates could of gotten the Sox to empty their farm system. But they could of most definitely done better than Moss/Hansen for Jason Bay. Bay was fantastic for the Sox and showed what a good player he is when he's on a good team and motivated to play hard. You aren't going to find many better LF's in the game than Bay, as an overall player. And the Pirates accepted mediocrity for him.

[LetsGoBucs]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Why not? They gave up Murphy/Gabbard to get Eric ****ing Gagne late two seasons ago.

That right there is exactly why they wouldn't. They were VERY high on Brandon Moss up here, and if Hansen can ever find the strike zone, I think they will have done OK with this deal. I think they were in a very tough spot last year because teams seemed to be reluctant to part with their prospects, yet the Bucs need to rebuild their farm team with prospects.

Believe me, I understand the frustration with the Buccos, as I am frustrated as well (I've told my wife I'm done with them at least 10 times over the past few years). I guess I'm so jaded that I was happy those trades weren't complete salary dumps like we've become accustomed to...

BTW, who would you have liked them to get from Boston? Just curious...

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

That right there is exactly why they wouldn't. They were VERY high on Brandon Moss up here, and if Hansen can ever find the strike zone, I think they will have done OK with this deal. I think they were in a very tough spot last year because teams seemed to be reluctant to part with their prospects, yet the Bucs need to rebuild their farm team with prospects.

If teams are reluctant to part with their prospects, then it's simple, you tell them "We're keeping Jason Bay. Bye." and you end the talks. Bay was still under contract for another season, there was no pressure to move him that very moment. That's why a lot of people have claimed this was just another salary dump move by the Nuttings, but disguised as a "rebuild" type thing.

Nady being moved, as he was in a contract year, having a career season, his stock would of never been higher. They still got a weak package for him, but it was good to move him.

BTW, who would you have liked them to get from Boston? Just curious...

I've no idea who they could of got, but Boston has a number of very good prospects, better than Brandon Moss, and you'd like to think the Pirates could of landed at least one of them by giving up Jason Bay. Usually when you give up a player of that magnitude, you see a big return like that. Boston/LA should of both been giving up top prospects, while LA gave up LaRoche, Boston gave up Moss. LaRoche, was good enough from LA, but you'd of liked to see something better from Boston, since they have such a stacked system.

It's just incompetent management, which is the Pirates. This is the same team who had the Tigers beating down their door two seasons ago, offering Jairr Jurrjens for Jack Wilson straight up, and the Pirates axed the trade talks. It's things like that which make you wonder if they're actually trying to lose.

[LetsGoBucs]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

This is the same team who had the Tigers beating down their door two seasons ago, offering Jairr Jurrjens for Jack Wilson straight up, and the Pirates axed the trade talks. It's things like that which make you wonder if they're actually trying to lose.

That's one that really bothered me. Just like the rumored Ryan Howard for Kip Wells deal they passed up (I've heard conflicting reports on whether or not this proposed deal actually happened). Sometimes it's the trades they DON'T make that anger me more.

It's nice to see there are still passionate Bucco fans out there like you steelcurtain!

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I've been a baseball fan my whole life, Pittsburgh is a sports town, it's just so depressing to see so many fans turned away from the sport here, simply because of the Nuttings ruining it for them. This type of behavior shouldn't be allowed for professional sports team owners, they shouldn't be allowed to profit off of purposely throwing out bad teams. It's a crock of ****, since it gives them no motivation to ever try and get better.

It's not just trades they pass up, it's their drafting too. They finally got it right the past few seasons, going with McCutchen/Alvarez, aside from that Moskos pick, ugh. Their little plan of drafting starting pitching was a gigantic failure, since their farm system has no clue how to develop pitchers, and they can't draft worth a **** when it comes to pitching to begin with. The past two seasons they drafted two possible franchise players, which is a good start.

It's insanely frustrating as a fan, considering teams like the Marlins, now the Rays, A's, etc have been turning themselves around with no payroll. Even the Royals and Reds are looking like they could be good teams in the next few years. It's not like it's impossible to win through drafting. The Pirates ownership just has no desire to win, since they're raking in money, it's pathetic. It's almost like the movie Major League, they benefit from the team losing so they just don't care.

[DirrtySouth78]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

Its good to know that I'm not the only pirate fan who is absolutely disgusted with our team ownership. I love baseball more than any other sport and personally think we have if not best looking stadium its in top 5. I havent been to all stadiums, but the ones I have didn't impress me as well as PNC did.

But the organization as a whole is utterly pathetic, We signed 2 Indian pitchers who won a reality show WTF is that. About some of our trades we made,didn't make a few moves really still bother me. The Aramis Ramirez/Bobby Hill trade, nothing more than dumping salary when you could see Ramirez getting better every year. Mets were offering David Wright for Kris Benson and we held back "to get more lucrative deal later" that ended up being Ty Wiggington. And VanBenschoten here's a guy who was a masher in college and we turned him into a pitcher, and not a very good one. He's a AAAA guy, too good for the minors not good enough for the Majors.

I agree that we have no chance this year.After Spring training is over we have about a month of games that will matter, and that is just sad. I want the Pirates to be competitive as much as anyone but Charlie Brown and the peanuts gang would beat the Pirates 4 out of 7 games to win a series. They make no effort to try, have drafted based on how much money they would spend instead of getting best available guy. Alvarez was a change in that aspect, but how long will that last. Make bad trades by trading a guy too early or too late or getting little of value in return.

What do we have this year too have hope for? The Laroche Brothers, that Doumit can actually stay healthy, a pitching staff that has a guy above .500 or and ERA below 4.90, that me might stay competitive for 2-3 months?

Its just frustrating watching a team that don't try anymore. they spend as little money as they can and pocket the rest. For all the flak the Yankees get, I would love an owner that would want to win that he didn't care how much it cost him.We have Scrooge. Those owners who are basically putting money into Nuttings pockets with revenue sharing while they actually try to win has to be irritating. Its why I think MLB should have a salary floor. U want to spend like the yankees go ahead, but you need to have a payroll of atleast 50Mil.

Now I hope they play well and get it together but after 15 years the outlook is bleak.

[steelcurtain311]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

What do we have this year too have hope for? The Laroche Brothers, that Doumit can actually stay healthy, a pitching staff that has a guy above .500 or and ERA below 4.90, that me might stay competitive for 2-3 months?

I'm actually interested in seeing how Andy LaRoche does. He's much more talented than Adam, and if he pans out that would be great. Adam LaRoche is just terrible, but then again we did good with that trade, since Mike Gonzalez had to get TJ surgery and hasn't really done anything for the Braves, so at least we got something out of it.

They should trade Doumit. Last season was a fluke in that he stayed healthy for a good chunk of it. He's never healthy, he has a decent bat and all, but overall he's not a great player. Surely not a franchise player or anything.

Their pitching is what's really depressing. They don't have one single guy who looks like he could be a future ace. Brad Lincoln, sure, before he had to get surgery. Who knows what happens with him now.

Its just frustrating watching a team that don't try anymore. they spend as little money as they can and pocket the rest. For all the flak the Yankees get, I would love an owner that would want to win that he didn't care how much it cost him.We have Scrooge. Those owners who are basically putting money into Nuttings pockets with revenue sharing while they actually try to win has to be irritating. Its why I think MLB should have a salary floor. U want to spend like the yankees go ahead, but you need to have a payroll of atleast 50Mil.

You don't have to spend 200 million dollars to be competitive, the Yankees spend all the money in the world, it doesn't give them WS wins. The Mets have been spending and trading nonstop for 4 years now, they still have nothing at all to show for it. The quick fix way of building a ballclub isn't a guarantee anymore, it might make you competitive, but it isn't proof that you'll win.

I know what you're saying though, it would be so nice just to see the Pirates show that they're motivated to win by spending a little money. I mean wow, you have a payroll under 50 million dollars. That's nothing. What's so hard about moving it up to 70-80 million at least? It's not like the Nuttings don't have money. They just pocket all of that revenue sharing, or spend it on the ballpark. So what's the point of it? There were so many decent FA's out there this season, and the Pirates didn't try to pursue one of them.

Oh well. I just hope Alvarez/McCutchen are the start of something new in Pittsburgh.

[smurface]

Re: 2009 Pittsburgh Pirates

I'm actually interested in seeing how Andy LaRoche does. He's much more talented than Adam, and if he pans out that would be great. Adam LaRoche is just terrible, but then again we did good with that trade, since Mike Gonzalez had to get TJ surgery and hasn't really done anything for the Braves, so at least we got something out of it.

I dont follow the Bucs like i do with the Steelers, Pens and Panthers, just because its tough to follow an awful team.

with that being said if Andy Laroche does pan out to be a good player at 3B, which i dont see happening, he'll be dumped because Walker can jump in at third and then Alvarez in a couple years will take that position.

What i'm angry about as a pirate fan is dumping players. the outfield last year was beyond solid when they had Bay-Mclouth-Nady. Pirates have a catcher and 2nd baseman that are good enough, and a first basemen i can deal with. So instead of building around those 6 guys and buying, they sell. Now they need to fill 4 spots instead of 2.

I am excited with the drafting/signing of Alvarez, and Tabata looks to have potential.

Last, we all are angry the Pirates dont spend money, and i agree the MLB and the owners should do something to make baseball more competitive, but that will never happen. I heard the Pirates were interested in Pedro, but he wants 5-7million, and thats when the Bucs said thanks but no thanks.