Should this have been an earned run?

[Heroesandvillains]

Top of the 7th. A.J. Burnett on the mound. 2-1 Baltimore.

The first batter flies out. 1 down.

I walk the second hitter. Runner on first.

The third batter hits a ground ball to second. I try to turn the double play and get out of the inning, but Cano overthrows Jeter and the ball ends up in left field. The play is ruled an "E4." The runner advances to third on the error. Now it's 1st and 3rd, still 1 out.

Enter Damaso Marte to face the lefty, Nick Markakis. He walks. Bases loaded, still 1 out.

David Robertson comes in and promptly forces in the runner from third with a bases loaded walk. Based STILL loaded. Still 1 out.

The next batter strikes out. Bases loaded, 2 outs.

The final batter fouls out. The inning ends. 3-1 Baltimore.

When I checked the box score, the error IS indeed charged to Cano...no hit is ruled on the play.

Burnett's line: 3 earned runs, 4 hits, 6 k...what!?

Now, I understand that you can NEVER assume the double play. But, the call on the field was an E4. Not single;E4.

The runner that scored only advanced to third because of the error. The ruling of the play ASSUMED that the runner would NOT have been safe if the throw had been made properly.

Should this have been ruled an earned run?

[bobeureally27]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

Tough call. It probably shouldn't be an earned run. The run was forced in with a walk. That walk would have simply loaded the bases (no run scoring) if there had been no error.

The ruling is correct by charging Cano with an error. Don't assume the double play, correct. But, his wild throw allowed all runners to be safe and no out was recorded. So that is clearly an error.

[Zezoina]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

I think it is earned because the runner that crossed the plate was in play via the walk but if the runner who reached in by the E4 crossed the plate would have been an unearned run.

[arsenal123gunners]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

I think it is earned because the runner that crossed the plate was in play via the walk but if the runner who reached in by the E4 crossed the plate would have been an unearned run.

Correct, because the runner that scored didn't reach base on the error

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

I think it is earned because the runner that crossed the plate was in play via the walk but if the runner who reached in by the E4 crossed the plate would have been an unearned run.

Right. The runner that scored reached base via the walk.

This runner, based on the official ruling on field, only reached third via the throwing error. I guess the question is, if the runner had NOT advanced to third on the errant throw, would his run have been earned? I think no.

Therefore, simply advancing on the bad throw should NOT make the run earned. Right? The only way for this to result in an earned run would have been if the play had been ruled: single, E4 (the error resulting on the runner taking third).

Can someone confirm or refute this ruling? Burnett's ERA is already high enough. He pitched pretty well this time out. Not that there's much I can do about it now.

[countryboy]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

Earned/non-earned runs are determined by how the runner reaches base, not by what happens while he's on the bases.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

Earned/non-earned runs are determined by how the runner reaches base, not by what happens while he's on the bases.

Okay, that sounds good. It sucks, but that seems right because that's exactly what happened.

Even when I scatter 4 hits over 6 1/3 with him, I can't bring his ERA down.

[fullmetal2405]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

Earned/non-earned runs are determined by how the runner reaches base, not by what happens while he's on the bases.

I believe there is one exception. Say there's two outs, grounder to second, second baseman air mails it into the seats behind first. Since the error is the reason the inning continued, I BELIEVE that any runs after that are considered unearned.

But in the OP's case, yes it should be earned because the batter reached on a walk.

[Dbax_Faithful]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule10.shtml

EARNED RUNS

(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.

Under this rule that I'm assuming Baseball Almanac has correct, the game should have assumed that the double play would have happened flawlessly and the player advancing to second is out. The error should have made that runner scoring unearned to the pitcher that walked him.

[fullmetal2405]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule10.shtml

EARNED RUNS

(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.

Under this rule that I'm assuming Baseball Almanac has correct, the game should have assumed that the double play would have happened flawlessly and the player advancing to second is out. The error should have made that runner scoring unearned to the pitcher that walked him.

False. Partly. The double play can NEVER be assumed. So the score on this play would have been E4 allowing the runner to advance to third, batter safe at first on a fielder's choice.

The parts of the rule we need for this case:

(c) No run shall be earned when scored by a runner whose life is prolonged by an error, if such runner would have been put out by errorless play.

(d) No run shall be earned when the runner's advance is aided by an error, a passed ball, or defensive interference or obstruction, if the scorer judges that the run would not have scored without the aid of such misplay.

I always thought that the score went by HOW the runner reached base. I will have to retract my previous post that it was the correct scoring decision, based on the quoted section of the rule. It <i>IS</i> scorer's discretion... so maaaaaaybe the Yankee Stadium scorer had something against poor AJ?


EDIT: After running this past someone who has followed baseball for over 50 years, and used to umpire high school games, the game was correct in giving the ER to Burnett. Again, going back to what I originally said and what others said about it being HOW the runner got on base. Hard to find that in the rules, but they don't exactly spell out the odd scenario like this in there...

[countryboy]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule10.shtml

EARNED RUNS

(f) Whenever a fielding error occurs, the pitcher shall be given the benefit of the doubt in determining to which bases any runners would have advanced had the fielding of the defensive team been errorless.

Under this rule that I'm assuming Baseball Almanac has correct, the game should have assumed that the double play would have happened flawlessly and the player advancing to second is out. The error should have made that runner scoring unearned to the pitcher that walked him.

double plays are never assumed.

[edm18]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

I know you cant assume DP's, but the runner who was on first reached 2nd, and then 3rd, because of the error. Wouldn't this be scored a two base error in real life, assuming he would've been out at second with a good throw? And the runner on first reaches on a fielders choice? So I am thinking it should not be an ER.

[fullmetal2405]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

I know you cant assume DP's, but the runner who was on first reached 2nd, and then 3rd, because of the error. Wouldn't this be scored a two base error in real life, assuming he would've been out at second with a good throw? And the runner on first reaches on a fielders choice? So I am thinking it should not be an ER.

two-base error would be scorer's judgement. It's at least a one base error. But what matters is that the batter reached base on a walk. Therefore he's the pitcher's responsibility. The scorer goes by how the runner reached, not what happens while he's on the bases.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

False. Partly. The double play can NEVER be assumed. So the score on this play would have been E4 allowing the runner to advance to third, batter safe at first on a fielder's choice.

The parts of the rule we need for this case:



I always thought that the score went by HOW the runner reached base. I will have to retract my previous post that it was the correct scoring decision, based on the quoted section of the rule. It <i>IS</i> scorer's discretion... so maaaaaaybe the Yankee Stadium scorer had something against poor AJ?


EDIT: After running this past someone who has followed baseball for over 50 years, and used to umpire high school games, the game was correct in giving the ER to Burnett. Again, going back to what I originally said and what others said about it being HOW the runner got on base. Hard to find that in the rules, but they don't exactly spell out the odd scenario like this in there...

FullMetal, thanks so much for going out of your way to research this for me.

Everyone else, as well. This, again, proves that The Show's OS community is the best around, period.

And yeah. I'm always feeling that this game has it out against Burnett. What a headache!

[edm18]

Re: Should this have been an earned run?

two-base error would be scorer's judgement. It's at least a one base error. But what matters is that the batter reached base on a walk. Therefore he's the pitcher's responsibility. The scorer goes by how the runner reached, not what happens while he's on the bases.

Are you sure about that? I'm not saying it's wrong, but as long as I've been watching baseball, I honestly never heard this. I mean, let's say there are 2-outs in an inning and the pitcher walks the next batter. Then on the next pitch the runner tries to the steal 2nd base but the catcher throws the ball into center field, the OF'er then bobbles it, and the runner comes all the way around to score. Then the next batter pops out on the next pitch. This, under that reasoning, would be an ER? that can't be right?