Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

[swaldo]

I noticed the maximum pitch speeds for high pitches are different than low pitches and wonder why? To confirm this I used classic pitching and threw 5 fastballs (with max speed) both high and low and here are the results...

LINCECUM (Rated running fastball speed: 93 mph):

High Pitch avg: 96 mph
Low Pitch avg: 93.8 mph

WILSON: (Rated 4 seam fastball speed 93 mph):

High Pitch avg: 95.2 mph
Low Pitch avg: 93.2 mph

So with these pitchers you can basically throw 2 mph faster if you throw high as compared to low. To ensure this wasn't an issue with classic pitching I also did the same thing using both meter & analog pitching and the results were nearly identical.

I then wanted to see how Pro Yakyuu Spirits baseball and the MLB 2k11 demo handles this. In those games the speed of a max fastball is the same whether thrown high or low which confirms something is off.

A pitchers speed (on a radar gun) is rated when the ball comes out of his hand, so he should be able to throw 95 mph aiming either high or low. The speed of the ball as it crosses the plate would be around 87 mph.

I've seen many real-life baseball games where a pitcher is throwing faster in high zones. I could be wrong but I believe it's because if a pitcher knows he's going to throw up in the zone he wants to put some extra sauce on it. However, if they want to paint the low outside corner they might use a more controlled (and slightly slower) delivery.

If I'm right then The Show is taking a strategic decision away from the user. Do I want to throw as hard as possibe at the knees? It will be less accurate, so it might rise up waist high and get pounded. The way the game is now you can only get on average .5 mph over your pitchers rated speed throwing low, so the accuracy issue is pretty much fixed (it will be average.)

By the way, it's not just the demo - this works the same way in MLB 10.

[nemesis04]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

Technically it should be reversed. Low fastballs should be 1 or 2 mph's faster then high fastballs.

[tvman]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

I've noticed in real life that pitchers fastballs will have higher velocity if they are up and way out of the k zone, as in "overthrow".

[xjippyx]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

Technically it should be reversed. Low fastballs should be 1 or 2 mph's faster then high fastballs.

Don't think so. Lower the throw means more distance the ball needs to cover thus it loses speed at end. Thats my guess.

[nemesis04]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

Don't think so. Lower the throw means more distance the ball needs to cover thus it loses speed at end. Thats my guess.

Actually it has been proven with a radar gun.

[nomo17k]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

I don't remember the technically if this is still an issue and whether it's capable of correcting for its own measurement, but the speed gun registers the highest speed when the moving thing is moving directly toward the gun. So if it's positioned level with the pitch (i.e., perhaps the case for high pitch) then it registers a faster MPH. The pitch low would make a larger angle with respect to the gun, so it will register a lower MPH. However, I'm not sure if such an effect is large enough to account for the differences we see in real-life pitches.

Say if that's a non-issue and a pitcher does throws harder when the pitch is up in the zone (which I think is conventionally believe to be true, though nemesis04 says otherwise; is that true???). Any real-life pitchers here? Can you actually throw harder *mechanically* when the pitch is up, while throwing low takes some zip away? When I think about it I become unsure because I think a pitcher is generally taught to release a pitch later in the delivery, apparently because it gives more zip and also the delivery becomes more deceptive.

You can still vary the pitch speed yourself, only there is a ceiling, so the issue may not be as troublesome, don't you think. I think in the game the issue is that with classic pitching you don't really have any control over the command of pitch; it's purely a dice roll with player ratings, so pitching with less effort doesn't lead to better command, I believe.

[swaldo]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

I've noticed in real life that pitchers fastballs will have higher velocity if they are up and way out of the k zone, as in "overthrow".

That would be underthrown ball wouldn't it? An overthrown ball goes down - at least in this game is does

I'm not sure about the time/distance from hand to plate. I've heard low fastballs are faster than high fastballs (thrown with identical velocity) but haven't seen any science on it.

[Craigsca]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

That would be underthrown ball wouldn't it? An overthrown ball goes down - at least in this game is does

I'm not sure about the time/distance from hand to plate. I've heard low fastballs are faster than high fastballs (thrown with identical velocity) but haven't seen any science on it.

Mathematically, I'm not sure how that can be. Unless the distance to home plate is shorter on a low fastball as opposed to a high fastball. Really, it makes no sense.

[swaldo]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

You can still vary the pitch speed yourself, only there is a ceiling, so the issue may not be as troublesome, don't you think. I think in the game the issue is that with classic pitching you don't really have any control over the command of pitch; it's purely a dice roll with player ratings, so pitching with less effort doesn't lead to better command, I believe.

The way I understand it is that a max power pitch in this game will result in a hit to stamina & accuracy but will be faster and harder to hit (in the case of a fastball) - especially with perfect release on the corner. If you throw a minimum power pitch you'll get the accuracy but is a less effective pitch.

[Craigsca]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

From pitchingprofessor.com (whatever/whoever that is):

"Lower is faster. Most low fastballs are 1-2 mph faster than the pitcher's high fastball cousins. A radar gun will quickly prove this."

[bukktown]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

A low fastball has more of a -y velocity component in the direction of gravity.

[nomo17k]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

From pitchingprofessor.com (whatever/whoever that is):

"Lower is faster. Most low fastballs are 1-2 mph faster than the pitcher's high fastball cousins. A radar gun will quickly prove this."

Okay I can see that. And it does actually make sense all things considered. You know, you can never trust the speed gun on TV or in the stadium. So if the differences we are talking about here is due to unreliable readings, this may be non-issue... You can think that the speed gun in the Show is the unreliable kind you see on TV.

But it is likely true when a pitcher is trying to paint corners or really needs a strike (on 3-0 count for example), he gives up a couple MPH to gain more command, regardless of location. I've seen it happening all the time. And when he pitches up slightly out of the strike zone, then he most likely is going for a swing & miss or popup and it's reasonable to give such a pitch more power.

[NDAlum]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

As a pitcher, let me say low balls come in faster

Reason behind this: you stay behind the ball longer which results in less ground to travel going to the plate.

High balls appear faster because it's tougher for a hitter to get around on high pitches, especially above their hands.

[NDAlum]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

Okay I can see that. And it does actually make sense all things considered. You know, you can never trust the speed gun on TV or in the stadium. So if the differences we are talking about here is due to unreliable readings, this may be non-issue... You can think that the speed gun in the Show is the unreliable kind you see on TV.

But it is likely true when a pitcher is trying to paint corners or really needs a strike (on 3-0 count for example), he gives up a couple MPH to gain more command, regardless of location. I've seen it happening all the time. And when he pitches up slightly out of the strike zone, then he most likely is going for a swing & miss or popup and it's reasonable to give such a pitch more power.

Going for corners? Hell nah man you're throwing it hard and trying to miss off the plate if you miss.

3-0? To each his own. I know that I just set up down the middle and try to throw it hard and keep it low in the zone. If you miss either way it'll still be a strike.

Some do take a little off their 3-0 fastball

[swaldo]

Re: Problem with high/low pitch speeds?

A low fastball has more of a -y velocity component in the direction of gravity.

Does that mean the initial velocity is the same - but time from hand to plate is faster due to the trajectory?

Or does that mean the initial velocity is faster due to the angle of launching the projectile?

I think the key is what is the max speed you can throw at release, because the games physics engine should take care of the rest.