Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

[spit_bubble]

Something needs to be done to make a distinction between pull hitters and spray hitters, as well as guys with or without power to the opposite field.

The latter issue is the more significant one. It's too easy to go deep the other way while hitting, and while pitching it takes away from the strategy. You should be able to pitch away to most guys without having to worry about giving up an opposite field HR.

Off the top of my head I think a good addition might be to add two hitter attributes: 1. contact to the opposite field, and 2. power to the opposite field. Just like how they have splits for versus left and right, just add one underneath for opposite field that would cover the opposite field gap to the opposite field foul line.

So for power hitters who mainly pull all their HRs, their "power to the opposite field" would be low, and when you're up at the plate with that hitter you'd want to try to pull everything when trying to go deep. And then some guys might be good spray hitters with some pull power, so they'd have a high "contact to the opposite field" but slightly lower "power to the opposite field" so as to better represent their true ability.

Making a distinction between these types of hitters would both look and feel a lot more realistic.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

I totally agree that there needs to be a distinction between pull hitters and inside-out hitters. I posted my following ideas in another thread on how it could be implemented:

You can't really make certain hitters pull the ball because if the user is late on the swing, you kinda have to have the ball be hit the other way. Maybe make it so pull hitters have a very small margin for error on hitting outside pitches the other way, you have to time an outside pitch just right to hit it with authority the other way. Therefore, you force the user to want to pull the ball with these hitters as their chance for getting a opposite field hit is greatly reduced. Also, making pull hitters' swings even faster would also go a long way to having them pull the ball more often. I know some hitters do have faster swings, like Carlos Pena has a quicker swing than Tyler Colver. However, the difference should be more noticeable.

Opposite power has always been ridiculous in this series. I've seen contact hitters hit opposite field HRs on pitches on the inner 3rd of the plate. I don't think there is a hitter that can hit and opposite field HR on a pitch on the inner 3rd of the plate. I don't think there needs to be separate attributes. You can hit a ball farther if you pull it, it's just how it is. Say Albert Pujols can hit the ball 500 feet if he puts an absolutely perfect swing on a pitch. Now if Pujols puts a perfect swing on a pitch on the outer 3rd, his power probably maxes out at about 400 feet or so. So make it that a hitter can only hit the ball the other way say 80% of his max pull distance. And there should be even a lot more negatives on hitting inside pitches the other way, make it then 50% of max pull distance so Pujols would only be able to hit the ball the other way 250 feet max if he hits a pitch on the inner 3rd to the opposite field. It seems pretty easy to program in proper opposite field power. I feel my idea is very simple (I realize my percentages probably aren't perfect but they are probably close to realistic) and would yield realistic results as well.

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

...I don't think there needs to be separate attributes. You can hit a ball farther if you pull it, it's just how it is...

There would need to be separate attributes to help shape and define individual players and how they played.



In fact they'd have to code it so the CPU used these hitters right, so that a CPU controlled power hitter with low "power to the opposite field" tried to pull the ball more often against you.

Then they'd have to code CPU pitchers to pitch to each style of hitter appropriately as well, with them avoiding a power pull hitter's wheelhouse more often for example.

But it would all be well worth the time and effort. The game doesn't quite capture the concept of pitching in and out, and hitters trying to pull the ball.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

The game already has the spray charts to determine pull hitters, I don't think another batting attribute is needed. If the guy is a pull hitter (based on the spray chart) just apply penalties to his contact, power, and plate vision attributes when he hits the ball the other way. It can be done using the current system.

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

^ Yeah but the spray charts don't address contact and power individually. Some guys use all fields but don't have power the other way, while some guys use all fields with power the other way. There needs to be a difference between the two.

[rudyjuly2]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

I think they do need to have power ratings for opposite field in all baseball games to help tone down the opposite field HRs. But if we do this they also need to let us change how close we stand to the plate (maybe choose normal, cheat outside and cheat inside when at the plate). Batters will cheat up to the plate so they can pull the outside pitch. That's why pitchers will throw it up and in to back them off.

I don't think anyone wants to see a baseball game where a pitcher simply pitches to the outer third of the plate and doesn't face any dangers of HR balls other than to the 30+ HR hitters. While I don't want to see guys hitting the ball the opposite way for HRs, if you choose to cheat inside you should be able to still turn on those pitches for HRs.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

^ Yeah but the spray charts don't address contact and power individually. Some guys use all fields but don't have power the other way, while some guys use all fields with power the other way. There needs to be a difference between the two.

The reason certain players don't have opposite field power is because they don't put good swings on outside pitches. Carlos Pena is a pull hitter that hits very few opposite field HRs but he has the opposite field power when he puts the right swing on an outside pitch, it's just that he very rarely puts the proper swing on outside pitches to hit HRs to left field. Oddly though, Carlos Pena is great a pulling outside pitches for HRs. So I say you give him penalties or just greatly lower the chance of him hitting the ball solidly when he is late on the pitch. I would say his power isn't reduced to the opposite field, it's just his chance of solidly hitting the ball is much lower, which makes it seem like he doesn't have much opposite field power. I think the spray charts alone can provide all the data you need to give pull hitters penalties on hitting the ball the other way.

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

...I think the spray charts alone can provide all the data you need to give pull hitters penalties on hitting the ball the other way.

Well, again, there are guys who hit the ball to all fields... But who don't have power the other way. So their spray chart would be even to represent their hitting the ball to all fields, but what would keep them from hitting HRs the other way? There needs to be a distinction between power and contact.

I'm just repeating myself here.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

Well, again, there are guys who hit the ball to all fields... But who don't have power the other way. So their spray chart would be even to represent their hitting the ball to all fields, but what would keep them from hitting HRs the other way? There needs to be a distinction between power and contact.

I'm just repeating myself here.

Could you give me an example of the kind of player you are talking about?

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

Could you give me an example of the kind of player you are talking about?

Dustin Ackley is a guy that comes to mind. He has power to leave the yard by pulling the ball, and also sprays his base hits around the entire field:

Ackley's HRs
Ackley's hit chart

I know that's a small sample size, but I only really follow the Mariners and couldn't think of anyone else. Ackley's got some pop in his bat, but he's not a guy who is gonna go yard the other way. Or at least if he does it would be the exception and not the rule.

Come to think of it Mike Carp on Seattle is another guy who sprays his hits around, but who mainly hits with power by pulling the ball. Compare these guys to someone like Miguel Cabrera, who hit his HRs in 2010 all around the yard.

Carp has power too, so he's probably a better example.

As you can see six of his nine HRs over 400 feet.

Yet he sprays his hits around.

[Vashyron.]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

Dustin Ackley is a guy that comes to mind. He has power to leave the yard by pulling the ball, and also sprays his base hits around the entire field:

Ackley's HRs
Ackley's hit chart

I know that's a small sample size, but I only really follow the Mariners and couldn't think of anyone else. Ackley's got some pop in his bat, but he's not a guy who is gonna go yard the other way. Or at least if he does it would be the exception and not the rule.

Come to think of it Mike Carp on Seattle is another guy who sprays his hits around, but who mainly hits with power by pulling the ball. Compare these guys to someone like Miguel Cabrera, who hit his HRs in 2010 all around the yard.

Carp has power too, so he's probably a better example.

As you can see six of his nine HRs over 400 feet.

Yet he sprays his hits around.

Ok, looking at Dustin Ackley first. He seems to be a contact type hitter. His furthest hit ball in that hit chart is 400 feet so his pull power maxes out at 400 feet. So if you apply want I said in my initial post "make it that a hitter can only hit the ball the other way say 80% of his max pull distance," then Ackley would only be able to the ball 320 feet the other way (400 X 0.80) and he would not be able to hit a opposite field HR unless it's right down the line at certain parks. And on that hit chart, Ackley's furthest opposite field hit went 321 feet.

Onto Mike Carp. His farthest HR on the HR chart seems to be about 445 feet give or take so his max pull power would be 445 feet. 80% of 445 is 356 feet so 356 feet would be his max opposite field power. On the HR chart, he hit a opposite field HR that was approximately 380 feet, and on the Fox hit chart, he hit a opposite field HR that was 416 feet. My 80% was just a complete guesstimation; however, if you just up it to 85%, then Carp's opposite field power maxes out at 378 feet (445 X 0.80) instead of 356 feet with the 80%. The 85% is much more inline with Carp's HR chart since his farthest opposite field HR on that chart was 380 feet. Maybe the wind was blowing out on the day he hit the 416 foot opposite field HR on the Fox chart.

And if he bump up Ackley to that 85% opposite field power as well, the farthest he would then be able to hit a ball to the opposite field is 340 feet instead of 320 feet so he'd still barely have a chance at hitting opposite field HRs unless they are down the line or he gets help from the wind.

My percentages are just guesses. I'm sure if you collect a lot of data from lots of hitters, you will come up with a almost perfectly accurate percentage to work with. Every player's pull power is greater than their opposite field power.

Ackley and Carp spray the ball around so neither hitter would take penalties for hitting the ball the other way, and if you just max out their opposite field power at about 85% of their max pull power, you'd have pretty realistic in-game results. This is pretty much what I mean that you don't need separate power attributes, the power attribute for each player should be based on the max distance they can hit the ball, then their opposite field power will be a % of their power attribute.

You can then use the spray charts to penalize pull hitters for hitting the ball the other way and penalize opposite field hitters for pulling the ball (not in distance but in chance of making solid contact).

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

...the power attribute for each player should be based on the max distance they can hit the ball, then their opposite field power will be a % of their power attribute...

Except that not all hitters utilize their full opposite field power when hitting the other way. So one percentage number is way too general and not a true representation of what hitters actually do. Some hitters simply don't try to hit for power the other way, and yet still get hits to the opposite field. While other guys make a clear and concerted effort to drive the ball with power the other way. One percentage number isn't going to be able to accurately represent both of these types of players.

Bottom line is hitting the ball the other way and hitting it the other way for power are two separate skills. Usually what you see happen with young power hitters is a reluctance to go opposite field at all. Then they realize they have to shoot the ball the other way for a base hit every now and then just to keep pitchers honest and to keep from getting pitched the same way every time. When they do this their average goes up and they become more dangerous at the plate. As they become more comfortable with that approach you sometimes see them develop further and start to hit for power the other way as well.

Michael Saunders for the Mariners is a guy who hasn't gotten over trying to pull everything, and is in the process of fizzling out as a prospect. He's been up and down in his short career and one of the things they are trying to get him to do is to go the other way every now and then.

When you try to pull the ball all the time you have a much smaller window of opportunity for success. Some guys are talented enough to get away with it, but most aren't.

This is also something they could incorporate into Road to the Show, with a manager telling you that maybe you should start hitting the ball the other way to get your average up if you're struggling. Then later on if you're a guy who also has power the manager might suggest to you to start really driving the ball the other way.

[Bobhead]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

Except that not all hitters utilize their full opposite field power when hitting the other way. So one percentage number is way too general and not a true representation of what hitters actually do. Some hitters simply don't try to hit for power the other way, and yet still get hits to the opposite field. While other guys make a clear and concerted effort to drive the ball with power the other way. One percentage number isn't going to be able to accurately represent both of these types of players.

Except not all hitters try to hit for power when pulling, either. In both cases, there already is a representation in the game, it's called Contact Swing. I don't see why anything else needs to be changed (other than the opposite field power thing already talked about) in order to make it accurate. If more of Ackley's home runs are pulled, it's because he is overall too weak to be able to hit any opposite field, or because he simply doesn't try to hit any the other way.

Granted I'm not a big fan of forced tendencies in video games, so maybe I'm just biased. I would like to see some sort of attribute that simply defines a player's overall ability to hit the ball the other way, so that "overshifts" and "pitching to a double play candidate" become actual strategies, instead of just random things that we just pretend exist in the game. Other than that though, I don't want David Ortiz's real life mentality to dictate how I have to think, when I'm controlling David Ortiz at the plate. If that's the case I might as well just call David Ortiz up and ask him to come over and play the game himself.

[spit_bubble]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

Except not all hitters try to hit for power when pulling, either. In both cases, there already is a representation in the game, it's called Contact Swing...

The swing type option is good for pre-delivery decisions, but not so good once the pitch has been delivered.

Hitters often times make adjustments to pitches while the ball is on the way. They may have the thought in mind that they are going to really drive the ball, but instead get something soft away and make the adjustment, punching the ball the other way past the infield.

In that situation you'd make the decision pre-pitch to use a power swing, and say this hitter doesn't have opposite field power but does have good opposite field contact... You get a slider outer half, swing late and slap the ball the other way for a single while still using the power swing. It'd be too hard to switch mid-pitch and try to use the contact swing instead.

And in that same situation if the guy doesn't have good opposite field contact you'd be better off still trying to pull the ball, or at least going to the pull gap or to CF.

...I don't want David Ortiz's real life mentality to dictate how I have to think...

Real life mentality equates to real life performance and real life results. It's the same as any other attribute really. You're not going to go up there trying to mash with a weak slap hitter. You're not going to try to steal bases with a slow runner. You're not going to try to strike guys out with a pitcher with a low K/9 rating. Playing to guy's attributes and tendencies is part of the game.

[Bobhead]

Re: Pull hitters, spray hitters, and power to the opposite field

The swing type option is good for pre-delivery decisions, but not so good once the pitch has been delivered.

Hitters often times make adjustments to pitches while the ball is on the way. They may have the thought in mind that they are going to really drive the ball, but instead get something soft away and make the adjustment, punching the ball the other way past the infield.

In that situation you'd make the decision pre-pitch to use a power swing, and say this hitter doesn't have opposite field power but does have good opposite field contact... You get a slider outer half, swing late and slap the ball the other way for a single while still using the power swing. It'd be too hard to switch mid-pitch and try to use the contact swing instead.

And in that same situation if the guy doesn't have good opposite field contact you'd be better off still trying to pull the ball, or at least going to the pull gap or to CF.



Real life mentality equates to real life performance and real life results. It's the same as any other attribute really. You're not going to go up there trying to mash with a weak slap hitter. You're not going to try to steal bases with a slow runner. You're not going to try to strike guys out with a pitcher with a low K/9 rating. Playing to guy's attributes and tendencies is part of the game.

I agree 100% about the switching swing types, that's one of the main reasons I don't use Power Swing in the first place. However attributes and tendencies aren't synonymous. It's one thing to copy physical ability. Bat speed, accuracy (contact), run speed, fielding, etc... But tendencies are an entire different realm. I do try to pull the ball with weak hitters (granted, with normal swing), and quite frankly, I enjoy this privilege.

Nothing is physically stopping most real hitters from diversifying their spray charts, in most cases, such skewed direction is a result of habit, laziness, and comfort. Something hard-coded in the game that basically limits your options at the plate, would be quite annoying, at least in my opinion.