Bunt Trauma

[Bobhead]

There is a very small and specific, but extremely significant, problem with bunting. Well there's actually two but I forgot to save the video for the second issue, and I don't think it needs a video anyway...

The fielder charges within milliseconds of the batter squaring away for the bunt, as if the fielder has been given the gift of ESP. First thing I thought of is "maybe the fielder just always charges on bunt defense, but no, they don't, and one of the videos is a video of bunt defense defending against a batter who doesn't bunt.

Real fielders charge bunts, but they don't magically know the bunt is being done. They either charge ALL the time, whether you bunt or not (ie: guessing), or react to the bunt after the fact. Neither of these are happening in The Show.

Below are 3 videos, the first shows 3 separate at-bats in The Show. A bunt against a set bunt defense, a normal swing against the same bunt defense, and another bunt. The key is that the fielder only breaks when you are actually bunting, which dispels the theory that maybe the fielder is just breaking on an assumed bunt prediction.

The second and third videos are of real life college players bunting. Hopefully you can see the difference between how quickly Longoria breaks in The Show, and how quickly real life players break. We are talking maybe 1 or 2 seconds at most. It's a subtle difference, but that subtle difference translates to bang-bang outs at 1st that would otherwise be safe bunt singles.

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Coikl9c2H0g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/19zmhfitk-M" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/8bK-5ZQBtD4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Thoughts? Comments?

[wisdom less13]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I did some research and figured out how to post videos....

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/Coikl9c2H0g" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Video is private...

[Bobhead]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Oops... Does it work now?

[nomo17k]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Yeah maybe this is part of the issue...

I wish the fielder reactions are toned down a bit. Even better, separate Fielder Reaction sliders by position may be a good addition... then we don't have to lament how certain fielders (but not others) react too quickly/slowly, etc.

[Austin Hawk]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Cool video but I don't see a problem. The third baseman doesn't begin to move in until the batter squares up to bunt, which only makes sense. I don't see anything premeditated or programmed to give the 3rd baseman any advantage.

[Bobhead]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Cool video but I don't see a problem. The third baseman doesn't begin to move in until the batter squares up to bunt, which only makes sense. I don't see anything premeditated or programmed to give the 3rd baseman any advantage.

It's that he's moving THE INSTANT the bunt is squared, it's like they are happening simultaneously. The bunt animation starts, and the runner breaks. It's physically impossible to do that in real life. Between mental reaction time and muscle reaction and stuff, there's just no way someone could break that quickly.

Watch a video clip of a real life fielder fielding any ball, and see how long it takes for them to start breaking for the ball... then watch this clip again, and you'll see what I mean.

[ralphieboy11]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't have a problem with the result of that play. The 3rd baseman is playing even with the bag, and barely gets the guy by a half step at first. While his reaction was quick, the end result is pretty realistic.

I've had plenty of successful bunts when the infield is not playing up. Many times I was just trying a sacrifice, and my guy beat it out.

If every speedy guy can get a bunt hit with the 3rd baseman even with the bag, we are probably opening up an even bigger can of worms. Could turn into a buntfest.

I understand that was a pretty good bunt, but there were men on base. Since the 3rd baseman was playing up, was it a sure sacrifice situation? Late in a tie game, perhaps?

I know you squared around to bunt late, but it seemed the CPU was prepared for a bunt. Maybe that could justify the quick reaction?

[Bobhead]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I completely understand what you are saying, but I don't have a problem with the result of that play. The 3rd baseman is playing even with the bag, and barely gets the guy by a half step at first. While his reaction was quick, the end result is pretty realistic.

I've had plenty of successful bunts when the infield is not playing up. Many times I was just trying a sacrifice, and my guy beat it out.

If every speedy guy can get a bunt hit with the 3rd baseman even with the bag, we are probably opening up an even bigger can of worms. Could turn into a buntfest.

I understand that was a pretty good bunt, but there were men on base. Since the 3rd baseman was playing up, was it a sure sacrifice situation? Late in a tie game, perhaps?

I know you squared around to bunt late, but it seemed the CPU was prepared for a bunt. Maybe that could justify the quick reaction?

Actually, I was Tampa Bay, and it was the CPU that failed to bunt against me. I don't think there were any runners on base, and he was definitely bunting for a hit. I apologize for not specifying this stuff earlier. The point is though, it's the CPU that lost out, but it still bothers me because it just wasn't realistic.

I'm not too mad about the result. I guess I agree with you, it's possible for the fastest guys to be thrown out I guess... the bigger thing is how it happened. I know I personally love bunting (for a hit), and this type of thing keeps me from really bunting much this year, which has a big effect on my enjoyment of the game.

This was offline, franchise mode, also, for what it's worth. No lag was in play or anything like that.

[Bobhead]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Even better, separate Fielder Reaction sliders by position may be a good addition... then we don't have to lament how certain fielders (but not others) react too quickly/slowly, etc.

Boy would that be awesome. I'd set the pitcher's and catcher's reaction sliders to like negative 100.

[ralphieboy11]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Actually, I was Tampa Bay, and it was the CPU that failed to bunt against me. I don't think there were any runners on base, and he was definitely bunting for a hit. I apologize for not specifying this stuff earlier. The point is though, it's the CPU that lost out, but it still bothers me because it just wasn't realistic.

I'm not too mad about the result. I guess I agree with you, it's possible for the fastest guys to be thrown out I guess... the bigger thing is how it happened. I know I personally love bunting (for a hit), and this type of thing keeps me from really bunting much this year, which has a big effect on my enjoyment of the game.

This was offline, franchise mode, also, for what it's worth. No lag was in play or anything like that.

Ok. Cool. Thanks for the clarification. I think you are definitely onto something regarding the quick reactions. It would be nice if we could tone that down a bit. I do think the catcher and pitcher are sometimes too quick on those little tappers in front of the plate.

[hoopla32]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I've actually had some success with getting bunt hits. I've only attempted five or six bunts for a hit with Michael Bourn in my Braves franchise, but I've been successful twice.

On the flip-side, other than Reyes laying down two bunts for a hit on me in a series, everyone else is 0fer. I don't know the exact number but the CPU has probably attempted to bunt with no one on base 10-12 times and Reyes has been the only successful one so far.

[moemoe24]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Looks like to me the fielder charged exactly when he should have. Mthe problem is the fielders, mainly 3rd base and right field, are just too damn fast.

[Gagnon39]

Re: Bunt Trauma

Here's the thing you have to consider, as I have no problem with this.

If a player is playing in on the grass he's protecting against the bunt. I'm a high school baseball coach and we tell our third baseman all the time, "reading hands." The mili-second that he sees hands drop he's breaking.

That's what's happening in this video. You're not going to catch a Major League third baseman completely off guard as they're read for every hit and are looking for things like this.

I've drag bunted a ton of times with Tony Campana and have reached safely. In fact I'd say that I reach base probably too often with Campana if anything.

I have zero issues with bunting in this game.

[thaSLAB]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I think this issue comes into play due to assisted fielding, assisting a little too much. Which is fine, but it leads to slight ESP by fielders (and baserunners). Personally, I would like to keep it as assisted fielding (because full manual is definitely way difficult), but I like the idea of position specific sliders. Better yet, one suggestion I made was to incorporate ratings for each player, for each positions. And make the player's reaction rating work as a bonus or penalty, on top of the global reaction slider (or any other attribute.) That way, the amount of time it takes the CPU to assist you in switching would vary player to player, position to position.

[willIam9387]

Re: Bunt Trauma

I watched your video OP of Gardner's drag bunt and I have to agree the third baseman reacts too quickly. It's more of an AI reaction based off inputs than a human reaction based off observing the batter and first noticing when he drops his hands to bunt. I feel the AI might charge when the batter presses the bunt button which would lead to a noticeably fast reaction time for the AI.

I had a similar result like you did with Gardner with Juan Pierre last night. I wasn't able to deaden the ball especially well, but the play wasn't as close as it should have been IRL. The problem with this is that the AI reaction isn't based probably off observing the batter drop his hands, it's more based off a system of inputs such as the user pressing the triangle button which then helps the AI mirror the human, and essentially renders the surprise of a drag bunt obsolete.