Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

[MLB Bob]

I am a sim and ratings junkie and try to test and learn what I can about ratings and how to alter the way the game is played. I can't draw a walk to save my life...well not exactly but if I could get 1 a game that was good, 2 was phenomenal and anything more I though was great but came when a pitcher absolutely broke down and needed to not only be replaced but carted off to the mental hospital.

So i am trying something new. Many may not be interested in this method but my results seem pretty realistic for me.

I have read that plate discipline is still effecting game play even when you play the game manually, without simming. It has been suggested that pitchers will throw more balls to a player will high plate discipline ratings.

So what i did was in my Blue Jays franchise ( sliders are authentic and ILiveForThis' sliders on all star with modified user settings but left cpu sliders as indicated by the slider set) and jacked plate discipline to 99 for everyone of my 90 players on my roster. I am playing all levels (AA,AAA,MLB) games and have so far noticed it plays, for me, a helluva lot better. I still swing out the strike zone, but when I get to 3 ball counts I dont have the feeling that a walk is still so far away...if you know what I mean. I plan on continuing this and seeing how the walk rates work out but I am really enjoying it. Im hoping this isnt a placebo or me finally not stressing about walks (as I still have to earn them) and is something I can continue on with. Its not a perfect solution as if you plan on playing franchise and want to trade these players you would have to re-adjust their rating so you dont have a bunch of walk machines being simmed around the league.

So far in limited testing Ive seen 2-4 walks a game, I had chances to get more but they were boarder line pitches I felt I need to spoil..checking the pitch graphs things look good, scores are staying realistic. If anyone else is interested in giving this a try, feel free to post results. As I stated earlier I am using All star and authenic and ILIveForThis sliders with personal mods for my batting skill level. (I use a bit more contact and a lot more foul ball)

[BegBy]

From a hitter's perspective, I really don't mind the variety in both the pitching and my ability to perform at the plate in pitcher's counts. I've had plenty of at bats where it went my way, and I'm more than certain either the battery's ratings helped, the pitcher's helped, or most likely a combination of the two. I'm not saying I haven't been surprised and been called out, or helped out at the plate, but it seems like it can go either way at any time and that is fine by me.

My issue lies with cpu batters and their ability to read pitches remarkably well. I don't mean big hanging hooks that get crushed or never swinging out of the zone. I mean letting a 96 MPH fastball go that is on the black and they just take it. This happens far too often. I should say I mean in pitcher's counts to be more specific. I fail to see how a bottom of the lineup dude can just let that pitch go. I don't want him to cut and miss, or crack a double. I want him to protect. It's a real weakness in gameplay this year, and despite some rosters making that issue play better, it still is a bit of an issue. Knowing that a pitch has been called a strike a lot of the game and then seeing the batter let it drift by when his at bat is one of their last hopes is kinda lame. It's almost like they know it will be called a ball, despite the previous calls. Even if it's a strike and they get rung up I'm equally disappointed.

Maybe you'll find a sweet spot in the attributes that make it play out better. Good luck.

[MLB Bob]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

this is solely about the human players ability to draw walks. i have no issue (if I do Ive made the adjustments already) with cpu players. This is for the people that find pitchers paint the edges too much and have trouble drawing the walk for more realistic at bats....so far this has worked for me.

[nomo17k]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

...

I have read that plate discipline is still effecting game play even when you play the game manually, without simming. It has been suggested that pitchers will throw more balls to a player will high plate discipline ratings.

...

I actually doubt this is the case. Pitchers would pitch around when good batters are at the plate (and high Plate Discipline would increase OVR of the hitter), but I don't think CPU will purposefully nibble against high discipline hitters.

But this is from my limited CPU vs. CPU testing though.

[MBMavs20]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

Whether I am facing the CPU I try and work some walks but it just doesn't happen. If I get 1 a game that is good.

However, lately I have noticed that a lot of the pitches I swing at are out of the strike zone. So the computer is trying to pitch around certain hitters in my lineup but I still swing at bad pitches.

When I am pitching, I hardly EVER get the computer to strike out looking. If I have the CPU 0-2, the most success I've had striking him out is a fastball up in the zone that's usually a ball. Sometimes when I have them 0-2 they suddenly have great discipline and rarely swing at something out of the strike zone.

[Heroesandvillains]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

Whether I am facing the CPU I try and work some walks but it just doesn't happen. If I get 1 a game that is good.

However, lately I have noticed that a lot of the pitches I swing at are out of the strike zone. So the computer is trying to pitch around certain hitters in my lineup but I still swing at bad pitches.

When I am pitching, I hardly EVER get the computer to strike out looking. If I have the CPU 0-2, the most success I've had striking him out is a fastball up in the zone that's usually a ball. Sometimes when I have them 0-2 they suddenly have great discipline and rarely swing at something out of the strike zone.

That's odd...

Did you read my write-up in the most K's poll thread? Of my 11 K's, 8 of them were caught looking.

It's weird that we're seeing drastically different things...

[Bobhead]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

Yeah even I'm not seeing that. I have huge problems getting strikeouts, but getting the CPU to strikeout looking is never a problem for me. I'd estimate that a good 80-90% of my strikeouts are K's looking, on 2-seamers in the corner, backdoor sliders, etc...

It's really the only way I can strike the CPU out at all.

[Geronimo22]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

this is solely about the human players ability to draw walks. i have no issue (if I do Ive made the adjustments already) with cpu players. This is for the people that find pitchers paint the edges too much and have trouble drawing the walk for more realistic at bats....so far this has worked for me.

MLB Bob I admire your test. I too have done various tests over the last 2 years on plate discipline to get realistic results...

My final conclusion this year is I think the game out of the box plays very realistic. SCEA really did a good job of making pitchers pitch realistic on default AS. The problem wasn't the pitchers - it was me having poor at bat's.

IMO all you have to do is reduce the pitch speed slider (mine is at zero) and you will recognize pitches better, thus leading to more walks and better plate discipline.

Again, your test looks very well thought out and I'd like to hear more about your results.

I actually doubt this is the case. Pitchers would pitch around when good batters are at the plate (and high Plate Discipline would increase OVR of the hitter), but I don't think CPU will purposefully nibble against high discipline hitters.

But this is from my limited CPU vs. CPU testing though.

I'm playing two separate franchises right now... San Diego Padres and New York Yankees... I agree that the CPU pitches around higher overall rated players and not just players with good plate discipline. I've had some 8 walk games with the Yanks. The Padres, uhm I think my highest is 4.

[Ranger05]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I just try to ignore the base on balls stat in this game. I strive for realism and have never even come close to achieving anything even close to realistic in this category. I walk no-one ever, and I never draw a walk. I might walk once every other games and I might walk a batter once every three games.

[Bobhead]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I don't have any problems drawing walks as a batter, it's giving them out as a pitcher that confounds me. It's like I basically have three options: ignore the sub-par walks, use drastic sliders that have far-reaching consequences in other areas, or use Classic Pitching. There just simply isn't another way, unless you purposely throw balls all day, which is an absolutely ludicrous idea. What makes it worse is that the CPU doesn't chase balls, so I have even less incentive to throw outside the zone than a real pitcher would.

I've actually drawn 9 walks in my past 2 games, though. The batting side is easy imo. Patience and Sliders... and more patience.

[Majingir]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I actually doubt this is the case. Pitchers would pitch around when good batters are at the plate (and high Plate Discipline would increase OVR of the hitter), but I don't think CPU will purposefully nibble against high discipline hitters.

But this is from my limited CPU vs. CPU testing though.

I've seen Bautista get many balls thrown(and every game having to hear "bautista won the home run crowd, but what many people might not know is he also lead the league in walks"), but he hasn't really been walked much.

So maybe discipline doesn't really impact stuff that much.

[nomo17k]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I don't have any problems drawing walks as a batter, it's giving them out as a pitcher that confounds me. It's like I basically have three options: ignore the sub-par walks, use drastic sliders that have far-reaching consequences in other areas, or use Classic Pitching. There just simply isn't another way, unless you purposely throw balls all day, which is an absolutely ludicrous idea. What makes it worse is that the CPU doesn't chase balls, so I have even less incentive to throw outside the zone than a real pitcher would.

I think it's a combination of two issues... one is that with non-Classic pitching interfaces pitcher command is unrealistically too good, and another is that you don't get punished as much by keep throwing in the strike zone (and as you correctly note the fact that pitching to outside the strike zone isn't as effective in the game especially with breaking pitches, so you're kinda better of throwing strikes).

I've seen Bautista get many balls thrown(and every game having to hear "bautista won the home run crowd, but what many people might not know is he also lead the league in walks"), but he hasn't really been walked much.

So maybe discipline doesn't really impact stuff that much.

I haven't presented numbers from my CPU games yet, but I think this appears to be true. Or I should say that CPU discipline is as good as in real life for *average* MLB hitters (except chase %, which I maintain that it's probably off by a few %), but the difference between PDisp = 25 hitters and PDisp = 99 hitters (for example) aren't probably big enough to represent the difference between guys like Tony Gwynn and Vladimir Alvino Guerrero (born February 9, 1975).

[Bobhead]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

...Vladimir Alvino Guerrero (born February 9, 1975).

*Spanks hand* No more Wikipedia until you eat your vegetables!

[MLB Bob]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I have no problem hitting, scoring, hitting homeruns or maintaining a good avg. I am also not saying that its the game 100%. yes I do swing outside the zone sometimes, but I have no problem fouling them off either. What I saw in limited testing so far is that the balls are missing in a wider fashion (the waste pitches seem to be that, waste pitches instead of ones that are borderline and depending on the ump are strikes and balls accordingly.

I have never had a problem working the count but I also find pitchers able to max out their confidence because I have to protect the plate and make strikes for the pitcher. Playing now, I am finding they waste more pitches so they are more likely to give a pass even if they are actively trying to get me to chase. I did not find this with just adjusting sliders for CPU pitch control and strike frequency.

It is quite possible that this isnt affecting my games and my findings are small sample size, so I plan on playing my franchise this way. every other franchise Ive always had to work my tail off to get a walk a game and most of the time didnt. If information has already been released by devs or they have input as to whether plate discipline affects pitchers at all or how players that are human controlled are affected by plate discipline, feel free to share.

It is also mentioned, I believe that it does affect check swing ability, which I find Im able to check easier making some close pitches go my way as well (never had an issue with what was called before, but I do notice its easier..placebo?)

Continue discussing, testing. I'll post stuff when it happens.

[derelictojama]

Re: Testing New Experiement - Plate Discipline

I like this experiment, and this topic. Walks on both sides of the ball have been an issue with me. Let me say from the outset that what I'm going to say is just my experience and does not mean I think you should leave off what you're doing and try my way--it's just a good opportunity to mention some things I've been thinking / doing.

I have been for years--since they've been available-- using zone hitting on veteran and meter pitching on all-star. It's what I got used to. But every year, I'd get to a point where I was hitting really well but getting no walks, and pitching really, really well, and never giving up a walk. I'd mess with sliders, and go up and down levels (especially going up with pitching and down with hitting), but it seemed like the best I could do was occasionally draw an intentional walk, and maybe, maybe, I'd walk a guy with a middle reliever now and then. Essentially, to have my stats look right, I would purposely sim enough games to have realistic-ish stats. As for RTTS, forget me ever getting that "4 walks in the next 3 weeks" goal, not gonna happen.

This year I've done things differently. I've gone over to using mostly classic pitching, or even just manage games sometimes (that mode is cool, but has frustrating limitations), and only once in a while allow myself a meter game, because at this point, after 3 or 4 years, I can basically turn anybody into Greg Maddux with the meter, unless they have a really funky delivery or really unpredictable movement. Using classic pitching, I find myself -- like I would if I were a manager -- yelling at the pitcher, "Throw strikes, dammit!" when he just can't seem to hit the corners, and now a good game pitched might include 3 or 4 walks, and it feels more right.

On the hitting side, finding the right slider combo of CPU Pitcher consistency, control and strike frequency, and combining that with ideas like laying off the low change up (and here's where if I were more savvy I'd link to that other cool recent thread where a bunch of people talked about how to lay off the low change up) and purposely taking breaking pitches until the guy proves he can throw them for strikes, AND moving up to All Star level, has resulted in me actually being able to draw a few walks a game, and often really kill the pitcher's confidence in the process. I'm still playing with the idea of going over to timing hitting--I like the idea of realism, but I'm so used to zone--and I'm really not very good, so it's not like I'm blowing people out-- I'm liking the way I can draw a walk when I need to.

Anyway, my thoughts and observations, I'll be interested to hear what you come up with when everybody's plate discipline is maxed out.

Other interesting issues are getting the CPU to swing at pitches out of the zone, and those kinds of things, but that's getting away from your OP.