Sinker/2 Seam FB Combo

[TattooedEvil]

thats like saying the straight change and the circle change are the same

[KowboysUp]

Quote: Originally Posted by TattooedEvil

thats like saying the straight change and the circle change are the same

Ugh, it's really not. The circle change is thrown with the thumb and forefinger touching on the left side of the ball for a right handed pitcher (similar to an old fashioned "OK" symbol made w/thumb and forefinger), whereas a strait change is generally thrown with a "box" grip where the fore finger and pinky are on opposite sides of the ball, with the thumb underneath.

Edit: also, the circle change runs away from a lefty far more than the strait change, which usually just drops strait down if anything.

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by TattooedEvil

thats like saying the straight change and the circle change are the same

Not really, he's not wrong in saying some pitchers have a sinker and a two seemer when they shouldn't have both but it's inherently incorrect to say they aren't separate pitches.

To your point, and it's what he's trying to say, you should never a see a pitcher with a circle change and a straight change.

There are however pitchers who throw both two seemers and sinkers, just maybe not as many as we see.

[Foo4Everlong]

Quote: Originally Posted by KowboysUp

That's my concern with only 5 options available and a guy like Clay Buchholz, who doesn't really throw a "sinker", but certainly does throw a two seamer, using 40% of this pitch slots on the same thing. But I guess I'm in the minority here, and the game is still amazing, so I'll let it go.

Clay Buchholz does call it his "sinker" though. I just watched this video the other day! Very interesting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oLBJLfa094

[KowboysUp]

Quote: Originally Posted by Foo4Everlong

Clay Buchholz does call it his "sinker" though. I just watched this video the other day! Very interesting! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oLBJLfa094

I'm a Red Sox fan too, I've heard him call it that as well.

To Kehlis' point though, after watching, say, Derek Lowe for years, it's hard to call what Buch throws a sinker. It can get up to 95 MPH, and to the naked eye its main movement is in on the righty hitter, wheareas D-Lowe's pitch used to fall right off the table when he had it working.

I don't like to invoke the "back in my day" stuff, but I threw a two seamer back in the day, and was not aware that I could alter it and make it into a "sinker". Wish someone had told me!

[Jr.]

Quote: Originally Posted by KowboysUp

Ugh, it's really not. The circle change is thrown with the thumb and forefinger touching on the left side of the ball for a right handed pitcher (similar to an old fashioned "OK" symbol made w/thumb and forefinger), whereas a strait change is generally thrown with a "box" grip where the fore finger and pinky are on opposite sides of the ball, with the thumb underneath. Edit: also, the circle change runs away from a lefty far more than the strait change, which usually just drops strait down if anything.

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

Not really, he's not wrong in saying some pitchers have a sinker and a two seemer when they shouldn't have both but it's inherently incorrect to say they aren't separate pitches. To your point, and it's what he's trying to say, you should never a see a pitcher with a circle change and a straight change. There are however pitchers who throw both two seemers and sinkers, just maybe not as many as we see.

The only pitcher I've known that ever threw both was Johan Santana.

[ComfortablyLomb]

Lowe would play with the movement. He would throw a heavy hard sinker with a lot of downward movement but also liked to throw it sometimes with more horizontal movement in on LHH. He didn't really consider them different pitches. Creating players who do things like that in a game is difficult. Do you just give him a sinker? Do you give him a sinker and running fastball?

Back on topic, the sinker in this game has exaggerated movement compared to the 2-seamer. I've noticed a few pitchers with both and I'm not sure I agree with them having that extra pitch. For example, Joe Kelly has both. His movement varies on his 2-seamer/sinker but it's sharp and tight in real life, not heavy and primarily downward. I removed the sinker and kept the 2-seamer (also acknowledging he's limited on the mound and probably shouldn't be a five pitch pitcher). I really think you need to go case by case with pitchers but having a different 2-seamer and sinker in-game in terms of movement differences is nice.