When's a win, a win...

[kehlis]

Quote: Originally Posted by Caulfield

the way wins are tracked is one stat that sorely needs reworking. or maybe wins should be scrapped entirely. maybe in some games a win shouldn't be given to an individual, maybe there should be team wins. there should be far more criteria for a win. in a scenario like hill's, a quality start should factor in. a pitcher could throw a perfect game through 4 innings & leave due to injury with a 9 run lead. a long relief guy could come in for the 5th & 6th innings & give up 5 runs. then a middle relief guy comes in in the 7th & give up a run, a setup man comes in the 8th gives up a run, the closer comes in the 9th gives up a run. final score 9-8, closer gets a save with a possible ERA of 9. the long reliever gets the win with an ERA of over 20. the other 2 relievers might have each had an ERA of 9 also. meanwhile the starter gets an insult added to injury with no credit for being the best pitcher in the game. wins just dont really mean diddly. then again we don't live in a perfect world & never will. we could just leave well enough alone. *shrugs*

Actually, once it get's passed the starter reaching the 5 innings, there are a lot of variables that allow the scorekeeper to make the decision on the winner.

I witnessed it once when I went to Baltimore for an A's game. Ryan Cook came in in relief and was dreadful but was the pitcher of record at the time they took the lead.

I thought nothing of it at the time until I woke up the next morning to see the win was awarded to Blevins who had pitched great in relief.

Here are the parameters as it applies to relief pitchers (there are no exceptions to the rules with the starting pitcher to my knowledge other than rain shortened games):

Quote:

Relief Pitcher If the starter does not get the win, because he did not meet one or more of the above conditions (say, he left with his team trailing, or only pitched a couple of innings), and his team wins, than the win has to be given to one of the relief pitchers. The relief pitcher who gets the win is the one who was pitching while his team took the lead, which it doesn’t relinquish. Again, this sounds straight enough, but there are a couple of important exceptions. 1 – If the starter left with the lead, but can’t get the win because he didn’t pitch enough innings, then it’s the reliever who was deemed to be the most effective that gets credit for the win. There are no hard and fast rules to determine this. 2 – If the reliever who should get the win based on the above rules was “ineffective in a brief appearance”, then the scorer has the right to award the win to the most effective subsequent relief pitcher. An example of this is in a situation where a reliever is called in to get the last out of the inning but gives up a few runs and the lead while finishing the inning. In the next half inning, the offense regains the lead, and then a new pitcher comes in. The first reliever met the condition for being the pitcher of record while his team took the lead, but can (and should) be denied the win based on this rule.

We just don't ever see it. I'll see if I can find that boxscore from the A's/O's game but it was years ago and I have no idea what year it was.

[KBLover]

Quote: Originally Posted by Caulfield

...or maybe wins should be scrapped entirely.

Assigning individual wins in a team game...and to only one subset of the team performance (hitters can't get wins unless they pitched)...I'm surprised it ever became a thing.

Just reading the rules kehlis posted is like...if I needed a reason to pay little attention to wins...that did it.

[ktd1976]

Quote: Originally Posted by Caulfield

the way wins are tracked is one stat that sorely needs reworking. or maybe wins should be scrapped entirely. maybe in some games a win shouldn't be given to an individual, maybe there should be team wins. there should be far more criteria for a win. in a scenario like hill's, a quality start should factor in. a pitcher could throw a perfect game through 4 innings & leave due to injury with a 9 run lead. a long relief guy could come in for the 5th & 6th innings & give up 5 runs. then a middle relief guy comes in in the 7th & give up a run, a setup man comes in the 8th gives up a run, the closer comes in the 9th gives up a run. final score 9-8, closer gets a save with a possible ERA of 9. the long reliever gets the win with an ERA of over 20. the other 2 relievers might have each had an ERA of 9 also. meanwhile the starter gets an insult added to injury with no credit for being the best pitcher in the game. wins just dont really mean diddly. then again we don't live in a perfect world & never will. we could just leave well enough alone. *shrugs*

In that case, the long reliever wouldn't necessarily get the win.

The official scorer can give the win to whoever he deems pitched most effectively after the starter came out of the game with the lead, but before pitching the required 5 innings to qualify for the win......

[Factzzz]

Quote: Originally Posted by kehlis

Actually, once it get's passed the starter reaching the 5 innings, there are a lot of variables that allow the scorekeeper to make the decision on the winner. I witnessed it once when I went to Baltimore for an A's game. Ryan Cook came in in relief and was dreadful but was the pitcher of record at the time they took the lead. I thought nothing of it at the time until I woke up the next morning to see the win was awarded to Blevins who had pitched great in relief. Here are the parameters as it applies to relief pitchers (there are no exceptions to the rules with the starting pitcher to my knowledge other than rain shortened games): We just don't ever see it. I'll see if I can find that boxscore from the A's/O's game but it was years ago and I have no idea what year it was.

All these years of watching baseball and i didn't even know that.

Spoiler

[zephyr22]

Here's the relevant paragraphs from the official MLB rules

Rule 9.17(b) Comment: It is the intent of Rule 9.17(b) that a
relief pitcher pitch at least one complete inning or pitch when a
crucial out is made, within the context of the game (including
the score), in order to be credited as the winning pitcher. If the
first relief pitcher pitches effectively, the official scorer should
not presumptively credit that pitcher with the win, because the
rule requires that the win be credited to the pitcher who was the
most effective, and a subsequent relief pitcher may have been
most effective. The official scorer, in determining which relief
pitcher was the most effective, should consider the number of
runs, earned runs and base runners given up by each relief
pitcher and the context of the game at the time of each relief
pitcher’s appearance. If two or more relief pitchers were simi-
larly effective, the official scorer should give the presumption
to the earlier pitcher as the winning pitcher.

(c) The official scorer shall not credit as the winning pitcher a
relief pitcher who is ineffective in a brief appearance, when at
least one succeeding relief pitcher pitches effectively in helping
his team maintain its lead. In such a case, the official scorer
shall credit as the winning pitcher the succeeding relief pitcher
who was most effective, in the judgment of the official scorer.

Rule 9.17(c) Comment: The official scorer generally should,
but is not required to, consider the appearance of a relief
pitcher to be ineffective and brief if such relief pitcher pitches
less than one inning and allows two or more earned runs to
score (even if such runs are charged to a previous pitcher).

Rule 9.17(b) Comment provides guidance on choosing the
winning pitcher from among several succeeding relief pitchers.

So where it says it's a judgement call on behalf of the official scorer, its not a subjective call, there are definite guidelines for determining the winning relief pitcher

[Caulfield]

its crazy to say one pitcher has to pitch 5 innings to qualify for a win but not a loss
and another pitcher is eligible for a win with a third of an inning pitched, which could mean just 1 pitch thrown.

[ktd1976]

Here is an example

Pitcher A starts, goes 3 innings, and leaves with an injury, leaves the game with a 4-0 lead.

Pitcher B pitches 2 innings, giving up 3 runs on 6 hits. Leaves with a 4-3 lead.

Pitcher C pitches 3 innngs of hitless relief, leaves with a 4-3 lead also.

Pitcher D pitches 1 inning of hitless relief.

In this case, the Official Scorer should award the win to Pitcher C, because he was most effective in relief.

Pitcher D would earn a save.