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Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Old 06-06-2015, 04:57 PM   #9
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

In your video, at 3 minute mark, for instance. His guy has just came up to your court, his play hasn't even started. There is no pick&roll action in the horizon. But out of no where (you could also say, randomly) Paul George, who is surprisingly a PF in your team, gets sent to double team the guy in the perimeter. This repeats in your opponents next possession. PG13 goes to double team the perimeter guy again, this time as the player who's actually the furthest away from the ball

Doesn't seem like blitz to me, at all... It's more like the good old Double team cheese. Let's be honest.

And no, PG13 is not a good PF, let alone being an amazing one. He works for you against certain teams, because 1) he creates a mismatch on offense that some players aren't able to counter, and 2) he's very quick and he's a good defender that fits your double team oriented/abuser defense as the double teaming PF. It'd be a hussle to send a big and slow PF every time to double team the perimeter guys, right?

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Old 06-06-2015, 05:26 PM   #10
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by PandaPower2k
In your video, at 3 minute mark, for instance. His guy has just came up to your court, his play hasn't even started. There is no pick&roll action in the horizon. But out of no where (you could also say, randomly) Paul George, who is surprisingly a PF in your team, gets sent to double team the guy in the perimeter. This repeats in your opponents next possession. PG13 goes to double team the perimeter guy again, this time as the player who's actually the furthest away from the ball

Doesn't seem like blitz to me, at all... It's more like the good old Double team cheese. Let's be honest.

And no, PG13 is not a good PF, let alone being an amazing one. He works for you against certain teams, because 1) he creates a mismatch on offense that some players aren't able to counter, and 2) he's very quick and he's a good defender that fits your double team oriented/abuser defense as the double teaming PF. It'd be a hussle to send a big and slow PF every time to double team the perimeter guys, right?
Agreed that he is an amazing PF for me because of the defensive scheme. AH i understand your claim of me not blitzing the PnR. In my other videos I have done that plenty vs players that likes to PnR 60-70% of the time. Other times I "blitz" in MyTeam up top because players want to zig zag. The blitz defense I run is to eliminate their zig zag tactics. I would rather challenge a zig zagger to make 2-3 correct passes in a row instead of playing on ball d which gives them a weird advantage.

Your insight is appreciated ^_^ So would my "MyTeam" gameplays be more enjoyable if i choose to guard man to man ?? I find it more challenging and fun to guard 4 guys with 3 defenders then rotate like mad for spans of 3-5 seconds lol
Is unfortunate that's considered cheese Hypothetically speaking, what would you consider as a non cheese double team heavy tactic ?

Before i was a youtuber it was easy to draw the line between cheese and sim, now that i am a youtuber i find myself always needing to discover the best 2k strategies that aren't exploitative. However, the game isn't perfectly sim, so when i do discover something "effective" is hard to determine is it cheese or just REALLY GOOD tactic. You know what I mean ?

I spend hours and hours perfecting my skills which are already good enough to win at a very high percentage offline and online. Yet, i have to keep pushing myself to discover higher levels of play so i can share new content with my viewers and subs. Maybe the highest level of play in 2K are Sim tactics carried out with cheesy efficiency; I think that's where I have reached lol It is a weird place to be ....

I like you PandaPower lol Feel free to comment or criticize my MyTeam game plays whenever you have a chance; i feel you can make me a better 2k youtuber ^_^

Last edited by itchyroll_51; 06-06-2015 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 05:45 PM   #11
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by QNo
Thanks for the video Sam, enjoyable as always. Can we discuss what kind of player we want at the PF? I think that it's one of the hardest and most consequential spots for your lineup to fill as it has huge ramifications on offense and defense. Hope you don't mind the theory-crafting, I thought it would fit well.

First, how is PG13 better than LeBron at PF? I'm not saying he's not, you're obviously way better and much more knowledgable about 2k than I am. I just don't understand why he would be. The only relevant stat PG13 has on LeBron is boxout, LBJ is as good or better in all the others. PG is less athletic and a worse defender both in the post and as a help-defender. He's an inch taller and has longer arms of course. But if you want the length, KD is a better choice than PG13. This would also be a better way to utilize PG's great perimeter defense, hiding KD in the post. PG also a much worse passer from experience, so I'm not really sure what PG13 gives you that LeBron doesn't.

Second, a more general point, wondering what your (and other people's) thoughts were. I feel like MyTeam PFs should either be SFs that stretch the floor and bring athleticism, or bigs that lock down the paint like Emerald AD. Those bigs have to be quick enough to guard opposing SFs and be good help defenders. The ultimate big PFs are probably Onyx Wilt, Eraser Hakeem, and Ruby Robinson. They don't have any real downsides compared to someone like AD, but are bigger and more dangerous on offense.

I don't like running PFs that are a defensive liability. I tried but I'm way too slow for the chaos defense so I'm sticking with man. Guys like Ruby Blake with that 99 speed don't really do it for me. The athleticism is nice but not spectacularly different from running a LBJ at PF. Blake is a poor defender and doesn't rebound as well as he should but most importantly, he doesn't stretch the floor the way LeBron does. If your PF is not an elite defenser I think that he has to stretch the floor. PD Malone is another guy who has been a terrible PF for me. Can't grab a rebound to save his life or make good defensive rotations.

As to stretch 4s, it's hard to say who the ideal candidate is. Nobody in this game is a good post defender, athletic, good rebounder, and hits the 3 consistently. Probably PD LeBron. PD Bird, who many think is one of the cheesiest cards in the game, is such a liability defensivey and on the boards that I can't justify playing him lots. PD Melo is probably my favourite of the players I've got, superb athlete and shooter, good rebounder and decent defender.

I'm using all the best players in the game as examples because I'm trying to figure out what attributes we're ultimately looking for. There are often decently cheap alternatives. It ultimately seems to me that there is no ultimate 4 and that you can go one of two routes. I don't think offensively gifted 4s without a 3 ball make for good 4s.
Thanks for the support as always Qno ^_^ As you know, I had Lebron at PF before and things were okay. However Lebron has a lot of cold zones on the right side of the court. So whenever i had Lebron on i always had to be mindful to space the court in a way where LBJ is always on the left side or going to the left. This took a lot of mind power and distracted me from setting up other players on my team properly. With PG13 at PF I don't have to worry about that at all since his hot zones are more spread out then Lebron.

There's also a very simple yet always true reason: I am not good at timing LBJ's release at all. Even if PG has lower ratings i shoot better with him because he has the type of release i prefer lol Straight up straight down with no lean and elbow flair.

But yes PG being undersized is a huge issue, that's why i have gotten even more aggressive with my chaos D. Is a give and take, that's why makes MyTeam so fun lol

Last reason, i am strapped for MT so i don't have a lot of options. The best card for me to use on my squad is Sapphire George so i need to do w/e i can to build a team for him with the limited MT i got lol ..
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:08 PM   #12
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by QNo
Been done for a while, but I still enjoy the collecting and I've still got a lot to learn about the game.
If you already finished MyTeam then you are one of the better players and you already know enough to win. You think there is more to learn, and maybe there is, but why? The next installment is due in 3 months and there will be plenty of new things to learn in that game.

Sometimes I think people want to learn how to stop someone from scoring almost every time and you can't. And you can't shut down cheese either, you can only hope to contain it. Just like you can't shut down LeBron or MJ, you can only hope to contain them.

If this was a real hobby like playing basketball or skateboarding then I would understand siting at home and watching YouTube videos and learning to be the very best. But it's a video game that is near the end of it's shelf life. I am looking forward to the next 2k, and I occasionally play 2k15. I don't see the need to study every aspect of it and get better when the game is near the end of it's shelf life. I am surprised I still play 2k15. 2k is doing a good job with them lately, because they never lasted more than 8-9 months before 2k14. Maybe it's because it's Summer time and I'm bored.

The ratings and rosters will all change next year. The shooting system will be different and there will be new cheesy methods. I think you don't give yourself enough credit because it always sounds like you've learned just about everything you need to know about this game.

Last edited by 2K15 PC; 06-06-2015 at 06:11 PM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:18 PM   #13
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by 2K15 PC
If you already finished MyTeam then you are one of the better players and you already know enough to win. You think there is more to learn, and maybe there is, but why? The next installment is due in 3 months and there will be plenty of new things to learn in that game.

Sometimes I think people want to learn how to stop someone from scoring almost every time and you can't. And you can't shut down cheese either, you can only hope to contain it. Just like you can't shut down LeBron or MJ, you can only hope to contain them.

If this was a real hobby like playing basketball or skateboarding then I would understand siting at home and watching YouTube videos and learning to be the very best. But it's a video game that is near the end of it's shelf life. I am looking forward to the next 2k, and I occasionally play 2k15. I don't see the need to study every aspect of it and get better when the game is near the end of it's shelf life. I am surprised I still play 2k15. 2k is doing a good job with them lately, because they never lasted more than 8-9 months before 2k14. Maybe it's because it's Summer time and I'm bored.

The ratings and rosters will all change next year. The shooting system will be different and there will be new cheesy methods. I think you don't give yourself enough credit because it always sounds like you've learned just about everything you need to know about this game.
Yeah Qno is a 2K knowledge sponge lol I know you asked me this earlier too, I haven't played MyTeam all year till now so is like a new game for me lol
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Old 06-06-2015, 07:11 PM   #14
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by PandaPower2k
Start zig-zagging and call it "Killer Crossovers!"... G
Spot on.
It is not personal but the hypocrisy is huge in OS. When someone runs T-Mac or MJ or anything at PG we condemn him to fire, when we play double team cheese we give a cool name like "chaos defense" and we claim that this seems like cheese but it aint. Sorry, it is, you have just found a way to master it. PG13 can be a terrific PF because of the broken post play of this game. In any decent sim game a gold duncan would score against him in every play

Do we do cheese things in our game? Mostly we do. I won seed 1 with Ruby Kobe as PG. I won't say however that I developed his playmaking skills and that I made him be a "dimer"

Come on!!!

If there was a thread called LBJ is an amazing PG with a video of LBJ playing PG and doing basline dunks every possesion against Chris Paul, I wonder how much hate comments I would read.

I don't know why this would be more cheesy than playing George at PF with endless "chaos" double teams. Not even mentioning Durant at SG or shooting 9 3s in 7 minutes. Next thing let's play Ruby Dunker Blake at PG and call it "mismatch maestro"

Last edited by kabamaru; 06-06-2015 at 07:27 PM.
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Old 06-06-2015, 07:45 PM   #15
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Spot on.
It is not personal but the hypocrisy is huge in OS. When someone runs T-Mac or MJ or anything at PG we condemn him to fire, when we play double team cheese we give a cool name like "chaos defense" and we claim that this seems like cheese but it aint. Sorry, it is, you have just found a way to master it. PG13 can be a terrific PF because of the broken post play of this game. In any decent sim game a gold duncan would score against him in every play

Do we do cheese things in our game? Mostly we do. I won seed 1 with Ruby Kobe as PG. I won't say however that I developed his playmaking skills and that I made him be a "dimer"

Come on!!!

If there was a thread called LBJ is an amazing PG with a video of LBJ playing PG and doing basline dunks every possesion against Chris Paul, I wonder how much hate comments I would read.

I don't know why this would be more cheesy than playing George at PF with endless "chaos" double teams.
Shane Battier was PF not long ago and his go to defensive strategy was to double team and then the rest of the team will play 3 on 4 on D + go front the post. The strategy i have chosen has existed in the NBA before, but i admit i am doing a poor job of recreating it properly. Part of that is on me, and part of it is on 2K.

Also myTeam is like basketball RPG fantasy land, that game mode allows for crazy things to happen. If you have seen my other videos and tutorials i don't promote double teaming as a strategy on online rank or any offline game modes. On myTeam it seems like a viable tactic; NOW I know is cheese when done in a certain way. I guess i am trying hard to find a way to do it that isn't cheesy. The Heat has done it before, and i want to try to create a MyTeam version of it.

I also understand the Heat blitzes PnRs but not isolations. However the zig zag on isolation is so strong on myTeam it feels like blitzing it with a double team is a sound strategy. I have played very strong players on RTTP before where the blitzing doesn't work and i have to settle back into a more traditional man on man defense. Faced a guy with PD larry bird as PF, that's pretty much saying blitz with you PF and DIE lol I only blitz that guy when Larry Bird had the ball in the corner. Rest of the way i played him man on man. He also had Onyx Kobe at point... that was a hell of a team lol.....

Game play here:



I double team because i choose to play a SF as PF (like Shane Battier back then), and when i can't do that I slide LMA to play the four and switch to a traditional defense. Is that cheesy ? I am honestly asking, i don't take anything personal; i understand we are all here to talk 2K tactics

I feel like i have mastered this weird form of defense, do i use it because it works well ? Or do i not use it because it looks like cheese ? I don't feel like is cheese because it took so much time to design and a lot of effort to carry out. My double teams don't yield open threes like the amateur ones because I tailored it with specific settings and POE's. Is so hard to pull off correctly, there's a lot of risk involved. I want to defend it as a legit tactic when done my way, but i can see the cheese argument too at first glance. I am taking this up against COACH2K next weekend; maybe putting it against a true sim head like him will let others judge it differently haha

I will keep working at this, and hopefully one day it will come out not looking like cheese ^_^
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Old 06-06-2015, 09:41 PM   #16
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Re: Sapphire Paul George is Amazing as PF

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Originally Posted by 2K15 PC
If you already finished MyTeam then you are one of the better players and you already know enough to win. You think there is more to learn, and maybe there is, but why?
The reason why is simply that that's the kind of person I am. Understanding things brings me pleasure and piece of mind. I'm the kind of guy who always knows much more about his hobbies than his skill level indicates. Of course most of the things I know are completely useless, but the process of acquiring that knowledge brings me joy, so I don't consider it a waste of time more so than any other hobby.


As to the cheesing discussion --

(1) I think Sam very much deserves the benefit of the doubt, as it's clear from the bulk of his videos and the fact that he's officially part of the simnation that he's very much a sim player.
(2) I have no problem at all with blitzing as the Heat did it. It was widely considered to be the best PnR defense in the world, and rightly so. It is very demanding on the defenders and requires them to follow a certain set of rules. Doing something like this in 2k the way the Heat did it can't be cheese unless it would be massively overpowered, which it doesn't seem to be as Sam tells us that he can't run this against very good players.
(3) It's impossible to perfectly replicate the Blitz defense, since the remaining 3 players go into a certain kind of zone, which the AI won't allow you to replicate perfectly. I'm happy it's not in the game though, it would be very overused in MyTeam.
(4) That being said, I was surprised myself to see the double teams where he doubles without a PnR being called. To me, that's not blitzing and can be considered cheesy.
(5) However, using it against zig-zag makes sense to me. I try to play as sim as I can, but when my opponent runs a lineup like LBJ, PG13, KD, Melo, Center I will most certainly sub in LBJ as my PG, since there are no players my PG could switch with. Fighting cheese with cheese is fine by me, as long as we're only countering the cheese and not adding our own flavours. I won't zig-zag because my opponent plays LBJ at point, I'll just do what I have to do to counter that. I hate zig-zagging more than anything else in this game. If this counters it and your opponent zig-zags constantly, I don't really have a problem with it. I'm sure others disagree, which is also fine.
(6) Sam, you would probably benefit from making clear in your video why you choose to double-team in specific instances. That would avoid confusion -- imagine if your well-intended strategy taught a horde of 2kers to double-team relentlessly because they have no idea what 'blitzing' is, or that you do it in certain situations to counter zig-zag cheese. Not everybody is a basketball afficionado.
(7) It's great that we're having this discussion as a community. Terms like 'cheese' are thrown around very loosely with no clear definition. Ironically, most big-name YouTubers contribute to this. They play cheesy and/or complain about things being cheese that aren't a lot -- e.g. the opponent hits a wide open 3, that's 3-point cheese.
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