Just played a guy Hersch03 on Xbox....

[harryl]

To a certain extent, this sounds kind of legit. I mean...in real life, if you could build a lineup of interchangeable defensive monsters like you describe, one would be trap a lot...incessantly, if the other team responded poorly.

I mean...if I had a lineup of, say, Oscar Robertson, LeBron, Kawhi, Draymond, and Bill Russell...it would be smart to trap/double-team a lot, and also switch a lot.

Now...if the game disadvantages the offensive team because the game dynamics make double-teams too powerful, artificially, then that's cheesy. I'm not entirely sure that's the case, as you've gotten suggestions on how loopholes in the gameplay can make you almost invulnerable to double-teaming.

Another thing you can do is to make sure you staff your team with shooters from 1 through 5, and hopefully also guys with fairly quick releases. So if you're running Curry, Klay, Durant, Dray, and KAT, then you have shooting all the way through and quick gunners 1-3. You're going to have an open man and that guy is likely to be able to get a wide-open shot off before he can be contested.

And/or have explosive guys who can drive hard to the rim and exploit help defense having left the paint.

I think double-teaming really only works really well when one isn't used to dealing with it. Once you have gotten used to the pressure, double-teaming 100% of the time, or near that, is not going to work well at all.

[phriscaul]

Quote: Originally Posted by harryl

To a certain extent, this sounds kind of legit. I mean...in real life, if you could build a lineup of interchangeable defensive monsters like you describe, one would be trap a lot...incessantly, if the other team responded poorly. I mean...if I had a lineup of, say, Oscar Robertson, LeBron, Kawhi, Draymond, and Bill Russell...it would be smart to trap/double-team a lot, and also switch a lot. Now...if the game disadvantages the offensive team because the game dynamics make double-teams too powerful, artificially, then that's cheesy. I'm not entirely sure that's the case, as you've gotten suggestions on how loopholes in the gameplay can make you almost invulnerable to double-teaming. Another thing you can do is to make sure you staff your team with shooters from 1 through 5, and hopefully also guys with fairly quick releases. So if you're running Curry, Klay, Durant, Dray, and KAT, then you have shooting all the way through and quick gunners 1-3. You're going to have an open man and that guy is likely to be able to get a wide-open shot off before he can be contested. And/or have explosive guys who can drive hard to the rim and exploit help defense having left the paint. I think double-teaming really only works really well when one isn't used to dealing with it. Once you have gotten used to the pressure, double-teaming 100% of the time, or near that, is not going to work well at all.

i have both types of lineups. starting lineup was 98 Kyrie/TBT diamond Melo/99 lebron/TBT Kevin Love/Diamond KAT. dude was stripping everything and was in the passing lanes for all others. it seemed as if he had done it so much, he knew the exploits that this caused. and he was closing out on everybody super fast. it was legit cheese. i hadnt played a guy like it this year. i made him panic when i caught on but it took a whole half.

[harryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by phriscaul

i have both types of lineups. starting lineup was 98 Kyrie/TBT diamond Melo/99 lebron/TBT Kevin Love/Diamond KAT. dude was stripping everything and was in the passing lanes for all others. it seemed as if he had done it so much, he knew the exploits that this caused. and he was closing out on everybody super fast. it was legit cheese. i hadnt played a guy like it this year. i made him panic when i caught on but it took a whole half.

Still going to not quite agree with your characterization. It takes a high level of skill to double-team constantly, force jump-balls, intercept passes, and not allow open shots with strong close-outs on all open shooters. It's not something that someone can just choose to do without the skill necessary to carry it off.

And if you beat him anyway...then that further erodes the characterization that it was cheese.

It's a very unpleasant style to play against, I agree with you on that. I'd rather not play guys who play defense that way. But I don't see it as cheese, because if not done well, it's easily burned. If it's done well...then there's a lot of skill necessary to make it so.

[phriscaul]

Quote: Originally Posted by harryl

Still going to not quite agree with your characterization. It takes a high level of skill to double-team constantly, force jump-balls, intercept passes, and not allow open shots with strong close-outs on all open shooters. It's not something that someone can just choose to do without the skill necessary to carry it off. And if you beat him anyway...then that further erodes the characterization that it was cheese. It's a very unpleasant style to play against, I agree with you on that. I'd rather not play guys who play defense that way. But I don't see it as cheese, because if not done well, it's easily burned. If it's done well...then there's a lot of skill necessary to make it so.

i dont think you understand. he knew that when he doubled, when he triggered certain animations, he could strip the ball, almost every time, and there was nothing you could do about it. this is an exploit. from this exploit, he knew you'd try to pass early so he'd spam steal at the nearest guy on a switch when he saw you back away from the double. its all predicated on the initial exploit.

and then further, on outlet passes, 2K doesnt allow variety in the passing on outlets. when a big gets the rebound and your guard leaks out for the outlet, you have to make the pass......or dribble up the floor with your big which nobody does even in real life. he spams steal as the camera is rotating on the possession change bc he knows there is only one type of pass to be made and u cant get the ball up the floor. this is also an exploit. his entire game was predicated on exploits. the reason i beat him, was because i was forced to play 3 steps faster than any should have to play and all of the exploits turned into badly timed steal attempts. but it took me an entire half to get acclimated to what i was seeing and figure out how to combat this.

[harryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by phriscaul

i dont think you understand. he knew that when he doubled, when he triggered certain animations, he could strip the ball, almost every time, and there was nothing you could do about it. this is an exploit. from this exploit, he knew you'd try to pass early so he'd spam steal at the nearest guy on a switch when he saw you back away from the double. its all predicated on the initial exploit.

Except that simply calling a double-team does not immediately trigger a jump ball or strip animation.

If one is used to dealing with the pressure of a double-team, it's not very easy to lock you up with a double-team. Especially with guys with the Championship DNA badge.

Quote:

and then further, on outlet passes, 2K doesnt allow variety in the passing on outlets. when a big gets the rebound and your guard leaks out for the outlet, you have to make the pass......or dribble up the floor with your big which nobody does even in real life. he spams steal as the camera is rotating on the possession change bc he knows there is only one type of pass to be made and u cant get the ball up the floor. this is also an exploit.

It's not simply an "exploit" because:

1. It can easily be avoided. You dribble up with your big at least enough to have an open pass recipient. You don't have to fast break. And even if you set PoE to fast break, at the moment you can pass from your big after grabbing a board, it's rare that all your non-bigs have streaked out to "outlet pass" territory.

2. It would take some serious skill in timing to consistently intercept passes.

Quote:

his entire game was predicated on exploits. the reason i beat him, was because i was forced to play 3 steps faster than any should have to play and all of the exploits turned into badly timed steal attempts. but it took me an entire half to get acclimated to what i was seeing and figure out how to combat this.

Yeah, exactly. They weren't exploits because they could be themselves exploited.

It's a very annoying playing style to face. It's very effective if one doesn't have the skill to adapt or doesn't yet know how to adapt.

[phriscaul]

you're saying it takes time and skill to perfect a cheesy exploitive defensive play style.


cool.


im not arguing with you about this. these cheesy twats know exactly why they are doing it. and it has nothing to do with just skill.

[harryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by phriscaul

you're saying it takes time and skill to perfect a cheesy exploitive defensive play style. cool. im not arguing with you about this. these cheesy twats know exactly why they are doing it. and it has nothing to do with just skill.

Then we'll disagree on the aspect of skill. We agree on how annoying it is, so it's not like I fundamentally disagree with you.

As a PC player, my main frustration is that I can't get matches. But sometimes I wonder if I would enjoy getting matches easily, given how there is a tendency to play in a cheesy and exploitive way.