It's official - No more 5-out

[MuneyJordan23]

Quote: Originally Posted by jyoung

I can definitely see why the average consumer who's playing this game on the default defensive settings would have so much trouble guarding the 5-out offense, because the default defensive settings will make your AI teammates leave shooters open on the perimeter to come help in the paint, even when that inside help isn't really needed. But once you went into the pause menu and made the necessary adjustments (deny/no help on all the shooters spotting up off-ball), it was pretty easy to defend a 5-out offense if you could just contain the ball handler and keep him from blowing by you since there were no other actions happening off the ball. Instead of removing 5-out as a freelance offense, I would have liked for 2K to add an "anti 5-out" defensive point of emphasis that instantly puts your team's on-ball defense to moderate and off-ball defense to deny/no help. I feel like the 5-out problem was more of a customer education problem than a gameplay problem. The tools to stop it are sitting there in the menus, but not enough people are aware of which settings to change. Adding an "anti 5-out" defensive point of emphasis that uses those settings (moderate on-ball, deny/no help off-ball) would also help CPU teams defend the 5-out freelance in offline modes. Right now, the AI tends to play smother on-ball defense when it should be playing moderate to prevent easy blow-bys from occurring. If 2K could get the AI to use the appropriate defensive settings when it sees the user in a 5-out freelance, then it wouldn't be a problem in the offline modes, either.

You know 2k doesnt care enough about this game to do that

[MuneyJordan23]

Quote: Originally Posted by isdatyt

Some people are just hellbent on playing garbage basketball. I don't think we'll ever truly get rid of cheese until they have stiffer penalties for playing out of position.

It's sad isn't it.

[jyoung]

Quote:

We also don't actually want to Deny everyone. We just want Moderate/Tight off-ball defense with a "no help" setting that sticks to those instructions.

I agree, but I haven't played enough 1 vs. 1 this year to know whether or not the defensive AI is like it was last year; in 2K17, you had to turn the off-ball pressure all the way up to "deny" to keep your defenders from leaving shooters open and running over to help inside, even if you had "no help" turned on. It took a combination of "deny" and "no help" to keep shooters covered, because "moderate" or "tight" plus "no help" would still result in your defenders leaving shooters open to help inside.

If the "no help" setting works by itself this year regardless of what you have your off-ball pressure set to (I can't speak on that issue with my limited 1 vs. 1 experience in 2K18), then "denying" everyone off-ball shouldn't be necessary any more.

Quote: Originally Posted by kabamaru

Deny/no help offball is as much unrealistic as 5 out is. You will NEVER see a basketball game with no help, deny all etc, as you will never see a basketball game with 5 out. Making an unrealistic counter cheese to stop the cheese is not the solution. What you are describing is 2k, but definitely not basketball

If you're talking about a 5-out isolation offense, there are possessions at all levels of basketball where that will happen, it just doesn't happen during every single possession for an entire game like it does in online matches of 2K.

If you're talking about a 5-out motion offense -- which I wish was in 2K, but isn't -- that is much more common in real basketball, and is even some teams' primary offensive system, especially in high school and lower grades where teams might not have any tall/strong players who are worth keeping around the basket for rebounding/scoring opportunities.

The first offense I was taught way back in 4th and 5th grade was a 5-out motion system. In high school, our coach ran three different types of 5-out motion sets, each with different spacing, rules, and reads. And I've watched Vanderbilt University's basketball teams (whose rosters are typically strong on shooters and weak on big body rebounders/post scorers) run plenty of 5-out motion sets over the years in Nashville.

The spacing itself (5 guys outside the arc, or alternatively, 5 guys above the free throw line) is very much a part of basketball, it's just the isolation part that you won't see much of these days, as isolation plays in general have fallen out of favor, with off-ball motion and pick and rolls becoming much more popular at all levels of hoops.

Quote:

I don't think we'll ever truly get rid of cheese until they have stiffer penalties for playing out of position.

Removing the regular 5-out might have caused more problems than it solved if people are now going to start their point guard at center to continue running 5-out.

That will just create more pause menu busywork for normal 2K players to get the defensive matchups and settings correctly assigned.

Quote:

They need to let us save a few custom defensive configurations if we are going to have to spend 2 minutes in the menus at the start of every game just to get the AI to not act like morons on defense.

Yep that's why I think the better solution, instead of removing 5-out, is to add an anti 5-out defensive point of emphasis. My understanding of the POE system is that it's basically a bunch of predetermined settings that override whatever you've manually setup? If so, that would give casual players the ability to make just three or four button presses in the middle of the game and easily stop 5-out offenses without having to pause the game and adjust a bunch of settings that might be confusing to them.

[NoLeafClover]

They need to let us save a few custom defensive configurations if we are going to have to spend 2 minutes in the menus at the start of every game just to get the AI to not act like morons on defense.

We already spend enough time not actually playing the damn game in MT (Apply contracts, set lineup, wait for match making, loading screen, pre game players leaving tip off wandering around for 30 seconds for no reason, tip off, player 1 pauses game for 1.5 minutes to adjust matchups and Def settings, player 2 pauses for 1.5 minutes to adjust, player 1 calls full time out because he didn't get to finish settings properly... etc etc.).

If we could set a few custom ones that were accessible in the On The Fly coach menus (e.g Tight on Guards, Anti Stretch 4 or whatever the hell we want to rename them), THEN having defensive settings being mandatory might be acceptable.

As of now, removing 5 Out is a much better compromise considering how much less work it required.

Sent from my SM-T810 using Operation Sports mobile app

[Erithtotl]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoLeafClover

They need to let us save a few custom defensive configurations if we are going to have to spend 2 minutes in the menus at the start of every game just to get the AI to not act like morons on defense. We already spend enough time not actually playing the damn game in MT (Apply contracts, set lineup, wait for match making, loading screen, pre game players leaving tip off wandering around for 30 seconds for no reason, tip off, player 1 pauses game for 1.5 minutes to adjust matchups and Def settings, player 2 pauses for 1.5 minutes to adjust, player 1 calls full time out because he didn't get to finish settings properly... etc etc.). If we could set a few custom ones that were accessible in the On The Fly coach menus (e.g Tight on Guards, Anti Stretch 4 or whatever the hell we want to rename them), THEN having defensive settings being mandatory might be acceptable. As of now, removing 5 Out is a much better compromise considering how much less work it required. Sent from my SM-T810 using Operation Sports mobile app

I think you make a great point. Years ago you used to be able to set general defensive settings for your team before games. Ever since they took that out, you have two options, 1) spend a ton of time at the beginning of each game making these micro tweaks, or 2) letting the game play as it is and hope.

I have never understood why they removed the ability to set up sets and settings ahead of time. Whats more, this gets thrown all out of whack when morons put their center and point and their point at center or whatever. You can never keep up with someone making these changes, as you will always be one stoppage behind. Its idiotic.

[harryl]

Quote: Originally Posted by jyoung

I agree, but I haven't played enough 1 vs. 1 this year to know whether or not the defensive AI is like it was last year; in 2K17, you had to turn the off-ball pressure all the way up to "deny" to keep your defenders from leaving shooters open and running over to help inside, even if you had "no help" turned on.

Yes, I agree with you. I maybe wasn't clear: when I said that "we don't actually want to run Deny All," I just mean that we don't want to have to resort to Deny coverage in order to keep the defender on their assignment.

[Hustle Westbrook]

Quote: Originally Posted by isdatyt

Some people are just hellbent on playing garbage basketball. I don't think we'll ever truly get rid of cheese until they have stiffer penalties for playing out of position.

These guys will do everything except actually get better at the game lol.

[landman2069]

Quote: Originally Posted by NoLeafClover

If we could set a few custom ones that were accessible in the On The Fly coach menus (e.g Tight on Guards, Anti Stretch 4 or whatever the hell we want to rename them), THEN having defensive settings being mandatory might be acceptable.

This is a brilliant idea to save us all some headache and let us refine our own games. I also want to customize my default defensive and offensive options like offense and crash the boards, etc without having to push 15,000 buttons to do it in the 2 seconds someone turbos down the floor on me.

I have noticed that none of my controller settings like absolute, no vibration etc are carrying over to my games and I have to reset them wasting more of my precious 2 minutes. After all of that work in the first half of the game, about half the time the game ends in the 3rd quarter due to opponent fouls or my stupid computer animation fouls. I never steal or try to block but seem to still get plenty of bs fouls.

2k you still have plenty of work to do....Oh yeah I can hardly see who the teeny tiny supermax reward is for the current week but plastered on each side of my window is a supersized version of the latest pack I could buy. Thanks 2k!