Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

[Smirkin Dirk]

Next gen came out late November last year, it will come out early October this year.

IMO, yes it will.

But we wont hear about it in the whirlwind of PR for 2K15. We'll hear about it when they are hyping up 2K16.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

It's not gonna make a huge difference it's only a month, i doubt it's gonna be used as an excuse. Everyone knows the games are pushed out pretty quickly.

[Mrleaderboards]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I dont know how to make videogames. I dont know what its like to make a good videogame. I don't know How to make a consistently good videogame. But i do know this:

2k puts out the very best basketball sim videogame every year. I bitch and complain about whats wrong with it every year, but i cant make games. All i can do is applaud & Critique their final product. 2K has been decent(NOT GREAT)at addressing day one problems through patches post release. So whether or not they use the shortened development cycle as an excuse is up to them, but i dont really feel like we as customers and loyal fans should have much to say on the matter. I'm just glad to be able to say that there's even a team of guys(Visual Concept) that are willing to crank out Great games every for us. Imagine the flipside...we could all be sitting here waiting on the next NBA JAM, or NBA LIVE...and you see how reliable THEY've been, right?

[El_Poopador]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I dont know how to make videogames. I dont know what its like to make a good videogame. I don't know How to make a consistently good videogame. But i do know this:

2k puts out the very best basketball sim videogame every year. I bitch and complain about whats wrong with it every year, but i cant make games. All i can do is applaud & Critique their final product. 2K has been decent(NOT GREAT)at addressing day one problems through patches post release. So whether or not they use the shortened development cycle as an excuse is up to them, but i dont really feel like we as customers and loyal fans should have much to say on the matter. I'm just glad to be able to say that there's even a team of guys(Visual Concept) that are willing to crank out Great games every for us. Imagine the flipside...we could all be sitting here waiting on the next NBA JAM, or NBA LIVE...and you see how reliable THEY've been, right?

Did you play 2k14 for PS4/XB1? Because there are plenty of day one issues that are still in the game. And I mean major issues. In My Career alone, there is no free agency, 0VC contracts, playcalling does not work at all, etc. Let's also not forget the issue in MyGM with players changing heights at random, that completely breaks the mode. So I'm not sure why they would deserve any applause, when these things were reported months ago, but have gone unaddressed. The patches they released this year only made the game playable from a technical standpoint (ie. crashing issues). And that is not to be applauded, since the game should not have been released with those issues to begin with.

[SPRINGS03]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I dont know how to make videogames. I dont know what its like to make a good videogame. I don't know How to make a consistently good videogame. But i do know this:

2k puts out the very best basketball sim videogame every year. I bitch and complain about whats wrong with it every year, but i cant make games. All i can do is applaud & Critique their final product. 2K has been decent(NOT GREAT)at addressing day one problems through patches post release. So whether or not they use the shortened development cycle as an excuse is up to them, but i dont really feel like we as customers and loyal fans should have much to say on the matter. I'm just glad to be able to say that there's even a team of guys(Visual Concept) that are willing to crank out Great games every for us. Imagine the flipside...we could all be sitting here waiting on the next NBA JAM, or NBA LIVE...and you see how reliable THEY've been, right?

You're wrong there though, if a consumer is dissatisfied with a product, they definitely have a right to have a say in the matter. It's not a free product here, and i intend to show my dissatisfaction with my wallet. And as far as saying "at least it's not live" that's not saying much. There's not much competition for sim basketball games, if any. 2k wins by default.It's like choosing mcdonalds over stale crackers for a meal, yeah it's a lot better, but it's not amazing food either.

[TeamBuilder]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

Did you play 2k14 for PS4/XB1? Because there are plenty of day one issues that are still in the game. And I mean major issues. In My Career alone, there is no free agency, 0VC contracts, playcalling does not work at all, etc. Let's also not forget the issue in MyGM with players changing heights at random, that completely breaks the mode. So I'm not sure why they would deserve any applause, when these things were reported months ago, but have gone unaddressed. The patches they released this year only made the game playable from a technical standpoint (ie. crashing issues). And that is not to be applauded, since the game should not have been released with those issues to begin with.

Yeah, MyGM mode was pretty bad. 2K should have just kept Association mode and tried to improve upon that. They fell into the trap of thinking that they needed to introduce new ideas with next-gen instead of simply improving the game.

[MarvellousOne]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

Yeah, MyGM mode was pretty bad. 2K should have just kept Association mode and tried to improve upon that. They fell into the trap of thinking that they needed to introduce new ideas with next-gen instead of simply improving the game.

Although I understood the reason 2K14 on next gen (now current gen) went with a different direction than the current (past gen) version, they wanted a new feel, I feel like the next gen versions had way too many things taken out of the game and was too VC heavy for my complete enjoyment. Visuals was great for the most part, and gameplay was nice, but the could have gave me a current gen version with the gameplay tweaks and graphical upgrades and it would have really been an amazing game. As it stands its really a game that has left much to be desired for...which leaves the series with lots of potential for upcoming games in the series but they also have customers almost ready to boycott to some degree because they fail to correct problems that continue to hamper the experience

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I feel like the next gen versions had way too many things taken out of the game and was too VC heavy for my complete enjoyment.

I've never done videogame development, but I'm not sure things can be labeled as having been taken out when they were never part of the game to begin with. Next gen 2K14 was the only launch sports title that wasn't a port to my knowledge - so things that people label as having been removed techinically didn't exist in the game to begin with it would seem.

As far as excuses, I guess it depends where the user expectations of some are. Seeing as how some people think 2K has near-unlimited resources and expected two full-featured near-identical basketball games to release within months of each other, I'm sure those that want to complain will have plenty to complain about when the game releases. It usually takes companies 2-3 years when transitioning to the next generation's systems to hit their stride so that's where my expectations are.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I've never done videogame development, but I'm not sure things can be labeled as having been taken out when they were never part of the game to begin with. Next gen 2K14 was the only launch sports title that wasn't a port to my knowledge - so things that people label as having been removed techinically didn't exist in the game to begin with it would seem.

I honestly don't believe that 2k14 was not a port, at least from the on-court gameplay. It played almost identically to 2k13, including the legacy issues. It had different modes and menus, but on the court, I refuse to believe it was new.

As far as excuses, I guess it depends where the user expectations of some are. Seeing as how some people think 2K has near-unlimited resources and expected two full-featured near-identical basketball games to release within months of each other, I'm sure those that want to complain will have plenty to complain about when the game releases. It usually takes companies 2-3 years when transitioning to the next generation's systems to hit their stride so that's where my expectations are.

While I do agree that it's not realistic to expect two full-featured games within one development cycle, 2k put that burden on themselves. No one would have held it against them if they didn't release 2k14 for PS4/XB1. They could have not said anything about it, and just worked on 2k15. But the fact that they not only rushed the next-gen product out the door, but also had the nerve to charge full price for a clearly incomplete game, is where most people get upset. NBA Live was delayed by a few days. Watch Dogs was delayed by a few months. But 2k shipped on launch day. The reception would have been much better had they delayed the game and fixed it, rather than forcing it out without so much as a hint to how broken it was/is.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I honestly don't believe that 2k14 was not a port, at least from the on-court gameplay. It played almost identically to 2k13, including the legacy issues. It had different modes and menus, but on the court, I refuse to believe it was new.

Fine, you don't have to - I don't know if you're a game developer but your evidence is anecdotal at best. As I said, I'm not a game developer so I wouldn't speak to what constitutes a rewrite of code. Given the complexity of today's games - or any successful software application I'd think - it's foolish to think these are applications written completely independent of each other. Anyone thinking the next gen 2K14 dev team making the game was completely detached from the core NBA2K14 team, didn't use any of the previous game's assets, etc. is coming in with a ridiculously unrealistic expectation.

While I do agree that it's not realistic to expect two full-featured games within one development cycle, 2k put that burden on themselves. No one would have held it against them if they didn't release 2k14 for PS4/XB1. They could have not said anything about it, and just worked on 2k15. But the fact that they not only rushed the next-gen product out the door, but also had the nerve to charge full price for a clearly incomplete game, is where most people get upset. NBA Live was delayed by a few days. Watch Dogs was delayed by a few months. But 2k shipped on launch day. The reception would have been much better had they delayed the game and fixed it, rather than forcing it out without so much as a hint to how broken it was/is.

In a way 2K put the burden on themselves - by always taking the kitchen sink approach to what they add in their games to where people have that as a baseline expectation. While laughably not holding other games to the same standard. I don't have the next gen game so you'll have to tell me what you mean as a "clearly incomplete game". Granted, that depends on what someone's view is on what's viewed as a complete game. To me 2K14 had what's considered mostly standard offline gameplay modes, standard online gameplay modes. Even had Legends content. You may not have liked them compared to their previous offerings, but it's not like the game shipped with only one gameplay mode. However I can see where you'd be disappointed if you came into the situation expecting some life-altering experience as a launch game.

Also not sure what you mean by "they had the nerve to charge full price" etc. Seems people are still playing the game some 7+months after it's released. It's one thing not to enjoy the game as much as you think you should be enjoying it; another to still be playing the game half a year plus later and say you shouldn't have been charged full price. You brought up NBA Live delaying their game a few days as a positive for whatever reason; I don't understand either - I guess you're implying EA was more virtuous because they delayed their game a few days and what resulted was flawless, versus 2K rushing the game for a day one launch and it was wholly flawed...? And that a couple days would've made a huge difference? Not sure why you brought up Watch Dogs delaying their game half a year as it's an apples/oranges comparison - Watch Dogs doesn't release on a yearly schedule for one thing. 2K releasing a new basketball game in May/June makes no sense at all.

Sure, 2K could've just not released a next gen game at all and waited for their first attempt to be this Fall. Sure, it likely would've resulted in a less flawed game, but it wouldn't have been near-perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And acting as if these companies should have altruistic values when it comes to games development is silly - they're trying to make a profit. It's why Watch Dogs and Titanfall launched on so many platforms, why Destiny will be launching on so many platforms. Games development costs $$$, and companies are trying to squeeze profits wherever possible. I fail to see how NBA2K14 next gen was such an abomination to where they shouldn't have released it. It's the out there expectations of some that needed to be checked imo.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

I am not within the gaming industry, am not a developer or tech savyy, nor do I have sources close to the situation, so take my argument as simply what it is, an opinion ...

If I am not wrong, one of the most promoted benefits of this next gen consoles was that they would ease the development of games. All games are made within a pc and then ported into each console, the process of porting them varied from 4 to 6 months each (for past gen), so the core of the game had to be made in something close to 6 to 4 months.

If I remember right, there were claims of these new consoles allowing to do such port in only 3 to 4 weeks and if true, thats a significant improvement and the additional time should be spent on further enhancing and refining the game developing (includding testing, real testing).

Back when consoles dev kit were delivered, I remember how some developers were praising the new tech as well as how Sony was in close contact with them, even providing some experts to assist on the early stages of getting to know the tech so it could be exploited as soon as possible. Some (like me) deduced that 2K unexpected E3 appereance last year was due to a direct result from this.

Anyways, companies should still be exploring and figuring out how to best use the next gen consoles prowess, so I do expect devs to still take time to master them and therefore the 1 year cycle been too short excuse. IMHO last gen wasnt fully exploited until after 2010-11. thus I dont expect this new gen to have such a long period.

Having said that, we should hold devs to their accostumed standards (if they throw the kitchen sink one year, why not everytime, specially since sells reached such considerable levels ?), we shouldnt give them a pass for deviating from distinct franchises staples, we shouldnt overlook the removal of features/modes that have been present and that are even introduced on other sports games, we shouldnt dismiss the power that we as customers have to demand the reintegration, improvement or addition of something. Lets just look at

Spoiler

Madden & The Show

, two prominent sports game that within the last few years had to reintroduce editing (football) and add a playoffs mode (baseball), due to fan feedback and not due to nowdays "savior" market of casuals, but due to the feedback of their hardcore fanbase. Lets also look at the last time the company had a new gen migration, all modes were offered and improved (thus slighted and thats been generous).

Hopefully 2K takes notice of our comunnity needs and wants and implement them, which I think is the ultimate reason for the OP to make this thread.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

Fine, you don't have to - I don't know if you're a game developer but your evidence is anecdotal at best. As I said, I'm not a game developer so I wouldn't speak to what constitutes a rewrite of code. Given the complexity of today's games - or any successful software application I'd think - it's foolish to think these are applications written completely independent of each other. Anyone thinking the next gen 2K14 dev team making the game was completely detached from the core NBA2K14 team, didn't use any of the previous game's assets, etc. is coming in with a ridiculously unrealistic expectation.




In a way 2K put the burden on themselves - by always taking the kitchen sink approach to what they add in their games to where people have that as a baseline expectation. While laughably not holding other games to the same standard. I don't have the next gen game so you'll have to tell me what you mean as a "clearly incomplete game". Granted, that depends on what someone's view is on what's viewed as a complete game. To me 2K14 had what's considered mostly standard offline gameplay modes, standard online gameplay modes. Even had Legends content. You may not have liked them compared to their previous offerings, but it's not like the game shipped with only one gameplay mode. However I can see where you'd be disappointed if you came into the situation expecting some life-altering experience as a launch game.

Also not sure what you mean by "they had the nerve to charge full price" etc. Seems people are still playing the game some 7+months after it's released. It's one thing not to enjoy the game as much as you think you should be enjoying it; another to still be playing the game half a year plus later and say you shouldn't have been charged full price. You brought up NBA Live delaying their game a few days as a positive for whatever reason; I don't understand either - I guess you're implying EA was more virtuous because they delayed their game a few days and what resulted was flawless, versus 2K rushing the game for a day one launch and it was wholly flawed...? And that a couple days would've made a huge difference? Not sure why you brought up Watch Dogs delaying their game half a year as it's an apples/oranges comparison - Watch Dogs doesn't release on a yearly schedule for one thing. 2K releasing a new basketball game in May/June makes no sense at all.

Sure, 2K could've just not released a next gen game at all and waited for their first attempt to be this Fall. Sure, it likely would've resulted in a less flawed game, but it wouldn't have been near-perfect by any stretch of the imagination. And acting as if these companies should have altruistic values when it comes to games development is silly - they're trying to make a profit. It's why Watch Dogs and Titanfall launched on so many platforms, why Destiny will be launching on so many platforms. Games development costs $$$, and companies are trying to squeeze profits wherever possible. I fail to see how NBA2K14 next gen was such an abomination to where they shouldn't have released it. It's the out there expectations of some that needed to be checked imo.

It's going to be difficult to have this discussion with you since you are not familiar with the next-gen (current-gen?) version. To begin, 2k themselves said the game was built on a new engine, and made a huge deal about how they weren't just porting the last-gen version. But at the end of the day, that's exactly what it was on the court. They may have ported it to a new engine, but it was still ported. The way they advertised it was incredibly misleading. In regards to it being shipped incomplete, a large amount of users could not even play the game upon launch due to crashes, server issues, etc. It took multiple patches over the period of several weeks to even make the game playable in its base state. That is before going into any shortcomings in the gameplay or mode options. That alone could be considered as the game being incomplete.

When wish list items for the next game include things like free agency in my career, I consider it incomplete. That should be a baseline feature in a career mode, yet was completely absent from 2k14 on PS4/XB1. And worse still, 2k never even acknowledged that it was missing, nor was it ever an issue. Again, as one of four primary modes (My Career, MyGM, MyTeam, and Quick Game), that's a mark toward incomplete.

Then there is a myriad of unaddressed issues, some of which I mentioned in my previous post. Players in MyGM will randomly grow or shrink, with no way to change them back. This is a major glitch that is essentially game-breaking. When Michael Carter-Williams shrinks to 6' tall in real life, let me know, and I will retract this statement.

In MyCareer, playcalling is 100% broken. This makes playing any position other than PG utterly worthless, as your team will very rarely (if ever) run plays. Even with the On-Court Coach signature skill, you need to have the ball to call a play. And when you do call a play, it will break as soon as you pass the ball.

These aren't new issues. These were there when the game shipped. That is what I call an incomplete, or broken (whichever way you want to put it), game. I was not praising Live for delaying the game. I was only bringing it up as a reference that other games originally planned to release on launch day, but opted not to for whatever reason. The same goes for Watch Dogs; they chose to delay their game until it was ready. You're right; 2k does release an NBA game every year. But they did not need to release 2k14 on PS4/XB1 when they did. They had already released a game this year that met the terms of their contract(s). So they could have taken all the time they wanted (between the release of 2k14 on PC/360/PS3 and the release of 2k15) to make sure the game was ready. Nobody but themselves decided to release a launch title. So comparing 2k to Ubisoft in that regard is not apples to oranges.

In any case, I never expect perfection by any means. What I do expect is a complete, working, game. And if features are missing or broken, I expect a little transparency, or at the very least, acknowledgement from the developers.

[spankdatazz22]

Re: Will the short developmental cycle be used as an excuse?

It's going to be difficult to have this discussion with you since you are not familiar with the next-gen (current-gen?) version. To begin, 2k themselves said the game was built on a new engine, and made a huge deal about how they weren't just porting the last-gen version. But at the end of the day, that's exactly what it was on the court. They may have ported it to a new engine, but it was still ported. The way they advertised it was incredibly misleading.

lol no, I'd say you had unrealistic expectations. They're selling a product. It's your responsibility as a consumer to make an informed choice. Instead, all you seem to be saying is you're going to believe everything you're told and it's their fault. Most products are going to be advertised as the best thing available - you need to be able to sort through it all to make the best choice for yourself. And even worse, you're trying to make them look bad by saying these issues are important to you and go back years. Yet you keep buying it anyway.

In regards to it being shipped incomplete, a large amount of users could not even play the game upon launch due to crashes, server issues, etc. It took multiple patches over the period of several weeks to even make the game playable in its base state.

There are lots of games that release with issues - Grand Theft Auto Online had a ton. Diablo III famously had lots of issues. The Xbox itself had a day one patch and still had issues. The PS4 had server problems. I'm not excusing 2K14's issues, but you shouldn't try to act like it's issues are particularly egregious. But as you said, I don't own the game so I can't speak to how good/bad the experience truly is.

When wish list items for the next game include things like free agency in my career, I consider it incomplete.

What wish list - the OS wish list? 2K's own fan sponsored wish list? That's a pretty subjective position to take imo - because they didn't address an issue that's on some wish list you consider the game incomplete? It's your right, but that's pretty open-ended.

Then there is a myriad of unaddressed issues, some of which I mentioned in my previous post. Players in MyGM will randomly grow or shrink, with no way to change them back. This is a major glitch that is essentially game-breaking. When Michael Carter-Williams shrinks to 6' tall in real life, let me know, and I will retract this statement.

Again, more subjective issues. Imo you're being too over-dramatic in saying this particular issue "breaks the game". I'm sure it ruins your immersion factor, and if it's the issue I've seen it took months after the game released to even discover it. Again, I'd say it's a matter of having unrealistic expectations that you're not going to come across issues.

In MyCareer, playcalling is 100% broken. This makes playing any position other than PG utterly worthless, as your team will very rarely (if ever) run plays. Even with the On-Court Coach signature skill, you need to have the ball to call a play. And when you do call a play, it will break as soon as you pass the ball.

100% broken to me means it doesn't work at all, not that it doesn't work as well as it should. But that's me. If plays constantly break after the first pass regardless of the situation then that is a broken feature, I just haven't seen the complaints/proof/attempts to workaround myself. If I understand correctly you're complaining about a particular game mode playing in a particular position. I don't know if the impact's the same for other positions.

These aren't new issues. These were there when the game shipped. That is what I call an incomplete, or broken (whichever way you want to put it), game. I was not praising Live for delaying the game. I was only bringing it up as a reference that other games originally planned to release on launch day, but opted not to for whatever reason. The same goes for Watch Dogs; they chose to delay their game until it was ready. You're right; 2k does release an NBA game every year. But they did not need to release 2k14 on PS4/XB1 when they did. They had already released a game this year that met the terms of their contract(s). So they could have taken all the time they wanted (between the release of 2k14 on PC/360/PS3 and the release of 2k15) to make sure the game was ready. Nobody but themselves decided to release a launch title. So comparing 2k to Ubisoft in that regard is not apples to oranges.

In any case, I never expect perfection by any means. What I do expect is a complete, working, game. And if features are missing or broken, I expect a little transparency, or at the very least, acknowledgement from the developers.

Again it's a matter of what your expectations are. Personally when I hear launch game or launch system, the first thing that crosses my mind isn't "They've perfectly anticipated every problem that could possibly occur". Again I'm not excusing what the game turned out to be. From what I've read I still feel like it was a great accomplishment, even with the frustrations. But I didn't see you once take responsibility for making the decision to purchase the product.