EA Canada created the best fighting game ever with patches. Why Visual Concepts can’t

[Kaanyr Vhok]

Too conservative.

There are too many flaws that are off the table at least to the point where 2k15’s flaws stand out more as legacy issues than they did in the past.

UFC was a fun demo. It felt like a new generation game but it didn’t capture the martial arts well. It was maybe better than something like Virtua fighter and that does say something however sports fighters are held to a higher standard. So I bought it thinking it was a great fighting game maybe the greatest ever. I lump arcade with the sports stuff and it was a great take on fighting and a well-polished piece of software before the patches. Since the patches the only question with me is second place. Ask me what game has the second best action combat and I don’t know. When I play on hard or go online its two dudes squabbling it out. The fight is more realistic than any game ever and more intense.

The patches removed all doubt. Canada patched away potential legacy issues in their first installment. And how do I know they were potential legacy issues? EA’s UFC game has the Fight Night engine for striking. The patches fixed flaws that were in Fight Night, KO Kings and every other fighting game.

I cant see this happening in 2k15's patch/s.
There are too many legacy issues. What are the chances? For examples of these issues...

Bigs get too many rebounds.
This is a newer issues related to old flaws. There have always been a lack of long rebounds and tipped or bobbled out to the perimeter rebounds. Allowing teams to camp their 4 or 5 for offensive rebounds was wise and welcome. Giving rebound ratings the one on one advantage to strip away rebounds was nicely done just over done a bit. This is exacerbated by a flaws in the ratings.

Example: Aldridge has a better boxout rating than Robin Lopez. I don’t know how indicative that is of other ratings issues. The ratings are certainly improved. Batum finally has a decent pass rating but the rebound ratings could use some service. Batum was the best rebounding sf in the league last season (Melow played the 4 and two more minutes on a team that cant rebound). He is fifth this season. In NBA 2k15 he is rated as a below average rebounder at his position. Serious!! Look at his player card. Unless there was an update he was below average at his position. I’ve always believed that perimeter players should be rated on a rebound scale that factors opportunity. I know it messes with the sim stats which Visual Concepts could tune on the backend but by not addressing this and by not addressing the lack of long rebounds we have a game where just about any 4 or 5 is guaranteed a double double in 12 minn qtrs .

The ratings have progressed from horrible to ah-aight. I believe Rashidi when he insinuated that there are certain ratings that are untouchable like another legacy issue

Speed
The speed ratings are baseless… They underrate at least half the league.
When I watch the Trail Blazers it appears to me that Thomas Robinson is the fastest player on the team. Even with STATs inc tracking how fast players move it appears that big men will always be arbitrarily slow. Usain Bolt would be 6’6 in the NBA but that is too talk for elite speed so I doubt he would crack 95.
Quincy Acy has a 60 in speed. In my ratings below. I raised him to 82.

http://1drv.ms/10qJa1l

You can see in the link it’s based on their sprints. Unless they get hurt, they age, or they are they are out of shape I don’t see why anyone should be made to move slower than they did in the combine.

This baseless approach to speed factors in other legacy issues like
Overrated stars
In real life you will take Quincy Acy on LeBron but since LeBron is LeBron he gets a real speed rating. Acy and other athletic players who just happen to be above 6’6 or whatever the magic number is are handicapped.

That’s not the only reason why stars are overrated. The Shooting is juiced. The league lacks athleticism and the defensive stance being another legacy issue.

In my Career on Allstar default im a 74 overall two way 6’4 shooting guard who averages 25 points, 8.8 boards and 4.5 assist shooting 42 and 48 from the field. Those are Allstar numbers. If I can do that with a 72 rated player imagine what I could do with someone in the 90s?

‘Juiced shooting’
- This is a “will give them that shot” league. From journeymen to stars they make “that shot” too often. Be it a wide open eight footer or contested three everything falls too easily with some head scratching exceptions.
The shooting forces you to play up on people exposing problems in the defense. So back to the stance…

My son is new to the series. He was playing My Player when he asked why his player is so slow on defense. I replied saying that it was a problem that has existed for a while and that the stance was too slow when you want to move fast and too fast when you want to move slow. That just flowed out. I called it sluggish or slow. This was awfully concise for an off-cuff statement so I decided to make a poll.

http://www.operationsports.com/forum...ve-stance.html


Physics
This probably would be the hardest thing to address in a patch but I will say that just a touch of random physics makes a huge difference in UFC. There is one area where the lack of physics in NBA 2k15 is both glaring and possibly addressable in a patch. Defenders should not bounce off of the ball handler when they close from the side or behind.

2k15 is a hell of a game. When the devs decide they want to fix stuff or add new stuff they are pretty good at it. The shot meter works so well I wish we had a pass meter just like it, the pregame show is fun, the new rebound animations are nice. When they decide to take chances they are ok.

[ChrisCP3Paul]

Most of these things can probably be fixed once they build a brand new engine from the ground up instead of continuing to polish this Dreamcast era thing they've had for a while.


this isnt directed towards you OP, but I have a hard time reading a lot of posts and posters saying they wish the game was this and that, but have no idea the game is limited because of the engine limitations, not because 2K doesn't want to do it.

When you got no real reactionary AI, and almost everything is a battle of animations, you can't expect much realism, you can just hope that animation hopping is nice and gentle and not too over the top....

well I personally am sick and tired of hoping that I or the CPU piece together enough smooth animations to get realism, I WANT REALNESS

[DonWuan]

Its sad because some people will look at the pretty graphics and say its the greatest of all time.

This game has some serious issues.

Scripted gameplay. Game just feels like its always running on rails. Some people call this momentum but cpu doesnt have to deal with it. I dont care about 4th quarter comebacks(user error) but let some random things happen 2k. In the future leave this stuff up to some type of physics/random engine.

Clipping. Unless my eyesight has gotten better over the years clipping is out of this world in this game. Not talking about limbs going through limbs but the important ones. Hands(not finger tips) flying through balls. As Ive said before, users have told me this was worse with 2k14.

Rebounding. Fixed slightly with sliders. But the conspiracy theory voice inside me sees scripted misses and cpu doing whatever it takes to get the rebound. Not talking about out working you. No your player sliding out the way, going out of bounds for no reason. The boxout/intense D making your player animate weird when it cant lock on to the player your boxing out. Its random but my players come down with rebounds and do a 5 second animation. Long enough for defenders to come and surround the player. I have not a seen a cpu player have that same animation yet. They go straight but up like Melo everytime make or miss.

Input lag. Im on pc and some had said its better. But to many times, im pressing the block button and nothing happens. I feel like my player always falling off the rails. Players recieving the ball(wide open) and wont shoot. Defender comes and you start shooting/pump faking.


CPU in general. Maybe im asking to much when it comes to cpu. But majority of the cpu shot attempts and made baskets come from last 3 seconds of the shot clock. Behind the back or whatever move that makes you lose intense D(feels like sliding around a force field) and normally ends with a mid range shot(the one that goes in way to often no matter the shot rating). I dont mind getting my butt whooped(ask the Hornets)

If that doesnt work its, running to the baseline for the midrange. Offensive rebounds putbacks by bums(dont mind the stars), or 2k momentum that leads to cpu getting buckets. Every player shooting fadeaways from the post. Dont mind Al Jefferson or even Dwight hitting a few but when Biyombo is hitting them consistently from the freethrow line we have an issue.

My biggest issue. 75ish percent of the cpu I face points do not come from basketball type plays. Comes from some type of pure bs 2k plays. Control the Bigs and cpu leaves 3pt shooters wide open. Control the guards and backdoor cuts and offensive putbacks. There not getting beat off screens/picks, just my teammates feel the need to touch the paint with there toe for some odd reason. 9 vs 1 basketball here.

I really feel bad for myplayer type people. Assuming guys are putting up 50ppg 20reb and 20assist unless your on a stacked squad. Nothing needs to be said about online.


And before you ask, Im not losing or getting blown out every game. Sim head here and just want a good experience without feeling cheated. I could go on and on about 2k and its issues but like the OP said its all legacy stuff we(2k) slap lipstick on that shows after the honeymoon period is over.

I complain so why do I play? Like I call my other favorite game APB. Its an abusive relationship and Im a sim basketball fan.

One day ill write up the positive but positive is boring.

[JO122194]

I'm going to give you guys the best piece of advice right now. I owned every Madden from 01-15. I'm only 19 and I have owned 14 years of madden. In the beginning, it was so beautiful. Madden 04, Madden 07, the high points. Than Madden 12 came, a great game and I started playing VERY competitively, I ended up being 158-12 online that year. Than Madden 13 came and i started to see major flaws, than 25 and more and more flaws. I got 15 and couldn't even play it without critiquing everything. I ended up really having a fall out with Madden and sold it for the first time in 14 years. I bought FIFA for the first time after getting really into the world cup. I haven't had this fun with a sports game in a long long time. I check the fifa forums and I see threads about the games flaws, but know what I do? don't click them. I don't wanna see the flaws, I just want to enjoy the game. The best thing for you to do is take a step back a view the game as a NBA2K and not NBA. just play the game don't hold the game to real life.

[tomzennsbruh]

Dude...pass meter.

Good idea.

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by ChrisCP3Paul

Most of these things can probably be fixed once they build a brand new engine from the ground up instead of continuing to polish this Dreamcast era thing they've had for a while. this isnt directed towards you OP, but I have a hard time reading a lot of posts and posters saying they wish the game was this and that, but have no idea the game is limited because of the engine limitations, not because 2K doesn't want to do it. When you got no real reactionary AI, and almost everything is a battle of animations, you can't expect much realism, you can just hope that animation hopping is nice and gentle and not too over the top.... well I personally am sick and tired of hoping that I or the CPU piece together enough smooth animations to get realism, I WANT REALNESS

There's nothing about an existing engine that somehow magically limits 2K's capability. Engines are extended all the time. Advanced engines are usually built upon existing technologies.

And "physics" and "reactionary AI" isn't a buzzword you can throw in and get "realness" out the other end. The game looks as good as it does because of the years spent smoothing out animations. Without contextual animations, you get NBA Elite or Live 12-15.

2K's limitations aren't because "it's old". It's because the things you want are extremely difficult computer science problems that haven't been adequately solved yet, much less in realtime. And 2 players facing each other in a confined space in a fighting game (and yes, with hundreds of animations stitched together) is a much more limited problem than the chaos that is 10 players and a ball over an NBA court.

[Crookid]

I agree with everything the OP stated.

For anyone thinking this is just another complain thread, I suggest you read his post entirely. He makes valid points and is providing concise feedback. Not just ranting because he lost on HOF because pick and roll to dunks aren't winning games for him.

Another thing I'd like to add OP is momentum. It is what a lot of people misconstrue as scripted game play. The momentum is too powerful. Get it on your side early and you'll never lose. Sub out when you have momentum and you're back in the game up by 20+ with no chance of the CPU coming back. Even on HOF. This also works vice versa. They need to tone this down and lower FG% for both sides especially on "Simulation". But this touches on your point about "imagine what I can do with a 90 rated player".

Ocasionally I will go back and forth with the CPU where we both just can't hit a thing and each getting defensive rebounds. This is when the game feels the most realistic and it's fun as hell. All the issues stem from momentum and before anything they need to figure out how to reduce the offense played in this game. 12 minute quarters should not end with 120+ points every time.

A true fix in this game starts with defense.

[Gosens6]

What a thread. Agree with a lot of statements made with the OP and other posters here. Love the game, but these issues take a lot away from trying to get a Sim experience.