Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

[itchyroll_51]

I watched the SimHangOut last Friday, and Da_Czar was talking about how we as a community would be better heard by 2K Devs if we can present quality feedback along with our concerns. Long time SimNation member NelsonBlake also mentioned how 2K youtubers should make videos featuring what needs the most attention on 2K16.

Sam Pham is part of this community and I am rookie 2K youtuber lol So here are my concerns and issues with 2K15 that I hope will be improved for 2K16.

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[mgrand15]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

This video is too good. I hope 2K takes notes. I'm not sure if it's due to how the AI flows into the free lance or if it's due to the touches tendency or play calls but it's a HUGE problem. Personally, my only experience is in MyPlayer where I'm forced to adapt to whatever the AI is doing. With Plays on AUTO, the AI will try to run one play and if it doesn't work, they'll go into the Default 3-2 offense or just iso and throw up an ugly contested shot with whoever has the ball.

The problem with the default offense is that the AI'll try ONE action and if it fails, they're going right into a post up for the big man. Post being the primary option if all else fails is slightly dependent on team but as you can see with the Wizards - it happens FAR too often with bigs that have no business being the number 1 option. Nene and Gortat are nice players but their game isn't posting up 10+ times a game.

Just to get into it a little more, the AI doesn't do a great job of trying to get free for option 1 or 2. If the play initiator is a pass to the wing - that wing guy has to be completely free for the AI to have the balls to make that pass. I completely understand flowing into option 2 when they're being denied but a lot of times the defender isn't really in position to make a play.

2 more things: on a team like the Wizards - if everything breaks down, option number one should be to space out and have a big PNR with John Wall. That should happen A LOT. Instead we get post ups and sloppy ISOs.

The other thing is even if a play gets broken or the free lance offense is shut down, the AI needs to find ways to use multiple actions and attacks on every single play. 24 seconds isn't a long time. One PNR isn't enough. If the 1st PNR doesn't work, the ball handler needs to swing it cross court and another big needs to come up for a PNR. This is what really makes you work on defense. Multiple PNRs. Multiple post ups. Multiple screen plays. Passing for the sake of passing is good - but the real threat is multiple scoring options on every play. Shutting down one play per possession is easy-ish.

I think sharpening up the playcalling and freelance offense would be huge in fixing the # of passes + on-ball screens. Obviously this stuff is NOT easy - so I'm not bashing the devs at all. A video like this seems like it would be super helpful towards the cause of replicating NBA style basketball.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

The other thing is even if a play gets broken or the free lance offense is shut down, the AI needs to find ways to use multiple actions and attacks on every single play. 24 seconds isn't a long time. One PNR isn't enough. If the 1st PNR doesn't work, the ball handler needs to swing it cross court and another big needs to come up for a PNR. This is what really makes you work on defense. Multiple PNRs. Multiple post ups. Multiple screen plays. Passing for the sake of passing is good - but the real threat is multiple scoring options on every play. Shutting down one play per possession is easy-ish.

I would like to see this on the user side as well. If a play breaks down, the AI teammates should realize that and react accordingly, without needing to call another play or manually calling for a screen. Like you said, it's obviously not easy to program, but I would like to see more intelligent automation of my own teammates' actions. For example, if I bring the ball around my teammate, they should automatically set a screen for me, since the whole point was to use them as a wall to separate myself from my defender. Or if I'm playing off-ball and run around my teammate, they should screen my defender. Things like that would add a lot more flow to the offense, and create more movement overall and more switches on defense.

I think right now, offenses just don't flow enough. There's a lot of standing around when a set play isn't called, or teammates not making the right decisions of when to cut to the basket, or move out of the way, etc.

Great video Sam Pham. Hopefully it helps for 2k16.

[LD2k]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

There is a reason dev's regularly check OS - for threads like these. Very good stuff here.

[ffaacc03]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

I would like to see this on the user side as well. If a play breaks down, the AI teammates should realize that and react accordingly, without needing to call another play or manually calling for a screen. Like you said, it's obviously not easy to program, but I would like to see more intelligent automation of my own teammates' actions. For example, if I bring the ball around my teammate, they should automatically set a screen for me, since the whole point was to use them as a wall to separate myself from my defender. Or if I'm playing off-ball and run around my teammate, they should screen my defender. Things like that would add a lot more flow to the offense, and create more movement overall and more switches on defense.

I think right now, offenses just don't flow enough. There's a lot of standing around when a set play isn't called, or teammates not making the right decisions of when to cut to the basket, or move out of the way, etc.

Great video Sam Pham. Hopefully it helps for 2k16.

All in with you ... only if they present this as an option ... let the users decide the level of automation we want ... also, dont think is that simple to program, to make the AI read/anticipate what you want to do or are doing, is much more complex than one could think ... but lets hope to have it as an option.

Also, we need to bring back the editable freelance tendencies ... while there are new "automated" freelances being brought like the ones integrated this year by Da_Czar, we need the editable ones too ... and let us assign teams those freelance offenses.

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

I would like to see this on the user side as well. If a play breaks down, the AI teammates should realize that and react accordingly, without needing to call another play or manually calling for a screen. Like you said, it's obviously not easy to program, but I would like to see more intelligent automation of my own teammates' actions. For example, if I bring the ball around my teammate, they should automatically set a screen for me, since the whole point was to use them as a wall to separate myself from my defender. Or if I'm playing off-ball and run around my teammate, they should screen my defender. Things like that would add a lot more flow to the offense, and create more movement overall and more switches on defense.

I think right now, offenses just don't flow enough. There's a lot of standing around when a set play isn't called, or teammates not making the right decisions of when to cut to the basket, or move out of the way, etc.

Great video Sam Pham. Hopefully it helps for 2k16.

It can improve more, absolutely, but I want to jump in to say how much improved it was this year in 2k15. Czar did a lot of work that never got publicized to Ronnie2k's target audience of casuals, and made more improvements post release. When plays break down this year the teammate AI does a lot of recognition and adjustment, or moves smoothly to freelance.

The spacing can improve, but if the user doesn't dribble around a lot, the team will react to the ball handler's positioning and adjust to a new branch of the play. But if the user dribbler doesn't set to a spot, the teammates will not know where to adjust, and that's hwn they stand around, and why.

I also want to add for Sam Pham, great video, I had never really seen or considered this but now that you point it out it's like, "Yes, of course!" I liked the video on Youtube and I'm a subscriber.

[El_Poopador]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

It can improve more, absolutely, but I want to jump in to say how much improved it was this year in 2k15. Czar did a lot of work that never got publicized to Ronnie2k's target audience of casuals, and made more improvements post release. When plays break down this year the teammate AI does a lot of recognition and adjustment, or moves smoothly to freelance.

The spacing can improve, but if the user doesn't dribble around a lot, the team will react to the ball handler's positioning and adjust to a new branch of the play. But if the user dribbler doesn't set to a spot, the teammates will not know where to adjust, and that's hwn they stand around, and why.

I also want to add for Sam Pham, great video, I had never really seen or considered this but now that you point it out it's like, "Yes, of course!" I liked the video on Youtube and I'm a subscriber.

Oh, absolutely it's improved a ton this year. I'm just referring to a few specific areas that I would like to see happen. Basically, if my teammates get too close to me or vice versa, I would like to see them set a screen for me instead of just getting in my way. Just little things like that can help improve the flow of the offense a ton. One thing I don't see often in the game is players having to chase their man around screens. It feels like when teammates do set a screen, it's set on a spot on the floor instead of the player they're supposed to be screening, so it's not effective and allows the defender to stick to their man.

[TheBigTicket205]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

2k please hire Sam... Campaign starts now! Great vid! Always insightful and well thought out! I'm a true sim, and I approve this thread lol!

[The 24th Letter]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

It can improve more, absolutely, but I want to jump in to say how much improved it was this year in 2k15. Czar did a lot of work that never got publicized to Ronnie2k's target audience of casuals, and made more improvements post release. When plays break down this year the teammate AI does a lot of recognition and adjustment, or moves smoothly to freelance.

The spacing can improve, but if the user doesn't dribble around a lot, the team will react to the ball handler's positioning and adjust to a new branch of the play. But if the user dribbler doesn't set to a spot, the teammates will not know where to adjust, and that's hwn they stand around, and why.

Agree with you wholeheartedly.....if my first option fails the offense gets into something the majority of the time to create an opportunity....It's a fantastic edition to the series and shouldn't be overlooked....Czar deserves major props here...

[El_Poopador]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Agree with you wholeheartedly.....if my first option fails the offense gets into something the majority of the time to create an opportunity....It's a fantastic edition to the series and shouldn't be overlooked....Czar deserves major props here...

Agreed. Looking forward to 2k16 to see how much more he adds and improves the flow.

[Da_Czar]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

I would like to see this on the user side as well. If a play breaks down, the AI teammates should realize that and react accordingly, without needing to call another play or manually calling for a screen.

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

[nova91]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change your the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

SO if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

This is a great explanation. I had somewhat of an idea of how everything worked, but this gives me a more clear picture. Which setting would I use to get my shooters to get themselves open for more 3s without me having to call a play all the time?

[El_Poopador]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

Ah, that may definitely help me out. Thanks, Czar!

[LorenzoDC]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

Just as an FYI if you change the option from motion to freelance. Your teammates will run options automatically as your wanting. Which one's they run depend on your POE.

So if you want more pick and roll set that as your poe and change your freelance from motion to freelance and they will run actions like ball screens etc.

Also for those of you who like a lot of pick and rolls to happen automatically you should use the pace and space freelance offense. Anytime you hold the ball for a count of 2 a ballscreen will come except for a very few instances.

So space the floor is for if you want to create your own actions. They AI will just stay out the way and you can use manual picks and iso's and ball movement

Motion the AI will constantly create motion if you hold the ball for a count of 2 one of the wings will cut or kick off some type of action.

Freelance the ai will run scoring type actions like ballscreens, offscreens, Postups, and Iso's actively so you need to read and react with your teammates or you could run into an action and wonder why they are not spacing.( Also keep the play art on until you get used to the actions. Some actions require a pass which is why this is not the default)

It is the only freelance system that allows you to choose what type of freelance you want because 1 style will not fit all users. Some people want to AI to react to them. Some want it to do things on it's own, and some want it to stay out of the way.

Pick the correct setting for the way you like to play and the right actual freelance offense for a better experience.

That said great info again from Sam.

PS. If your not getting action just hold the smart play button. If used after you cross half court it will give you an action from your freelance if one is available (again based on your POE) and if not something from your playbook.

Czar, this is great. With all the work and basketball logic you're putting into freelance, have you ever considered putting some more documentation out about his? Like old school Czar video? I know you did some shortly after release but it seems like you've put more and more in the game since then. Plus, as I've heard you say, you can use your time to build logic or use it to do videos, but not so much both, and you choose to build the game logic.

I know you're busy, so maybe a post like this will inspire someone to take that up in the community. I for one have spent so much time just learning triangle and freelance motion, that I haven't learned other systems and playbooks. There's just so much! Plus I have no video skills. And the overlay of POE makes it even more diverse, so it would be great to see examples with explanations.

Thanks again for jumping in here.

[jmaj315]

Re: Not Enough Passes and Ball Screens by AI: Quality Video Feedback for 2K16

We also need better ai defense for ball screens. No reason a guy in the opposite corner should switch to the roll man if he runs a pick and pop.