Sim, Cheese, or Yogurt: Pick and Roll Hard Hedge, Double Team with Winding Shot Clock

[itchyroll_51]

Today we will look at the ways i like to employ double teams + also the many different ways I like to defend Pick and Rolls. There are many good tactics here; however, the question as always: Are these Cheese ? Sim ? Or Yogurt (term coined by the great LorenzoDC haha).



As always feel free to discuss ^_^

Sam Pham

[JerzeyReign]

What you're doing isn't cheese by mentality, its "cheesy" by the lack of accurate/quick passes and/or the player spacing/quick defensive rotations that are made.

If 2K could speed up passes or have the defensive rotation play out a little more realistically than it would be fine because then the offense has a realistic possibility to punish double teams consistently. Double teams aren't really used as play "stoppers" they are used as disruptors (I'm making up words, its late) to throw off the timing and throw off the offenses timing with the pressure.

Now if there was a way 2K could program your offensive teammates to recognize the double team and look to get open your tactic would be fine - it'll get punished a lot but I'm sure you'd adjust.

My verdict, if used as often as I'm assuming it is, cheese. Used sparingly, sim. Then again I'm a very open minded sim player - the only thing that irks me is dudes that ...

[Pokes404]

It's a perfectly realistic tactic on paper, but it's a tiny bit cheesy in game form. Not bad, but just a bit. As the poster above mentioned, the slow/bad passes out of double teams are a little over emphasized. It makes it difficult to make the double team pay, even when you see it coming from a mile away.

The other thing that makes it tough is the truly awful off-ball movement by your AI teammates. Now the example you gave was during a play, and I'm speaking more about a freelance set with this. They either sprint at you, to the point that when you throw them the ball they're basically standing right next to you, and the defense is often able to recover. Or ... the thing that truly aggravates me ... they cut into the paint and stand behind two other defenders where you can't throw them a pass. The general rule in basketball is that when your man goes to double team, you make yourself available as an outlet for the ball handler, and once you get it, you attack the rim and play 4 vs 3 with the defense.

Your teammates seem to do the extreme ends of the spectrum. They either flash so hard to the ball that you can't take advantage of the favorable numbers, or they cut and make the pass so long that there's no hope of throwing it to them without getting a turnover.

My general rule in this game is that double teaming the post is fine, and double teaming on the perimeter is a little cheesy ... but just a little. It can be overcome, so it's definitely not in the same league as your spin dunks and euro 3's of past games.

[Cowboyfan_19]

Quote: Originally Posted by Pokes404

It's a perfectly realistic tactic on paper, but it's a tiny bit cheesy in game form. Not bad, but just a bit. As the poster above mentioned, the slow/bad passes out of double teams are a little over emphasized. It makes it difficult to make the double team pay, even when you see it coming from a mile away. The other thing that makes it tough is the truly awful off-ball movement by your AI teammates. Now the example you gave was during a play, and I'm speaking more about a freelance set with this. They either sprint at you, to the point that when you throw them the ball they're basically standing right next to you, and the defense is often able to recover. Or ... the thing that truly aggravates me ... they cut into the paint and stand behind two other defenders where you can't throw them a pass. The general rule in basketball is that when your man goes to double team, you make yourself available as an outlet for the ball handler, and once you get it, you attack the rim and play 4 vs 3 with the defense. Your teammates seem to do the extreme ends of the spectrum. They either flash so hard to the ball that you can't take advantage of the favorable numbers, or they cut and make the pass so long that there's no hope of throwing it to them without getting a turnover. My general rule in this game is that double teaming the post is fine, and double teaming on the perimeter is a little cheesy ... but just a little. It can be overcome, so it's definitely not in the same league as your spin dunks and euro 3's of past games.

Completely agree on that. From a MyTeam players perspective, I feel sympathy when their guy throws an unrealistic awful pass to the guy that's open, but I also feel the pain when my defender decides to ice skate against a user who zig zaggs Curry all game long in a 1 on 1 match-up.

[Coach2K]

Great video Sam!

I rarely use double teams myself. We all know how good Sam is and this was still a one possession game at the end.

The double teams are not really necessary to win and the bottom line is they just give your opponent something else to complain about.

If you must double team, in hall of fame sim slider games, I suggest you bring the doubler manually.

[10]

I think all of the posts so far have it right. The idea of using double teams shouldn't be cheese but since the offense is really limited in how it can attack them it kinda sorta is. If we could have the option to just back up and reset the offense, go around the hard hedge or maybe to split the double it would be nice. Instead we have to settle for hoping the ball handler doesn't throw the ball into the 10th row.

[itchyroll_51]

Quote: Originally Posted by GreenGiant25

I think all of the posts so far have it right. The idea of using double teams shouldn't be cheese but since the offense is really limited in how it can attack them it kinda sorta is. If we could have the option to just back up and reset the offense, go around the hard hedge or maybe to split the double it would be nice. Instead we have to settle for hoping the ball handler doesn't throw the ball into the 10th row.

We do have the option to back up and reset the offesne though at least on PS4 it can be done super quickly. Flick RS and RT (step back dribble) as the double is coming, while the dribble animation is taking place also swipe touch pad from left to right (quick isolation). I do this every time and i destroy 90% of the double teams i see; the times they do get me is when i get lazy and don't do this step back iso reset move.

**Iso resets the offense because it takes you back to your pre-set freelance. I usually have it as 4-1 motion cuts so that's like death if you try to double me.

The tools are there and that is how I use them NOW i understand the passes still float like beach balls sometimes but none the less this counter destroys any doubles. The beach ball pass sometimes even helps because it gives me time to survey the court so i can make a deadly swing pass for an easy basket or drive or draw a foul.

***To top it off i have gameplay footage of me doing this, just need to edit the next vid and i will post it here ^_^ The tools are there, so don't be discouraged by 2K's awkward pass animations. If you do this correctly, those animations won't even trigger.

Sam Pham

[Pokes404]

Quote: Originally Posted by itchyroll_51

We do have the option to back up and reset the offesne though at least on PS4 it can be done super quickly. Flick RS and RT (step back dribble) as the double is coming, while the dribble animation is taking place also swipe touch pad from left to right (quick isolation). I do this every time and i destroy 90% of the double teams i see; the times they do get me is when i get lazy and don't do this step back iso reset move. **Iso resets the offense because it takes you back to your pre-set freelance. I usually have it as 4-1 motion cuts so that's like death if you try to double me. The tools are there and that is how I use them NOW i understand the passes still float like beach balls sometimes but none the less this counter destroys any doubles. The beach ball pass sometimes even helps because it gives me time to survey the court so i can make a deadly swing pass for an easy basket or drive or draw a foul. ***To top it off i have gameplay footage of me doing this, just need to edit the next vid and i will post it here ^_^ The tools are there, so don't be discouraged by 2K's awkward pass animations. If you do this correctly, those animations won't even trigger. Sam Pham

Like we've said, double teams can be overcome, but they're a little overpowered. Stepback dribbles buy you time, but you can still be sucked into a double animation when the second defender is still 10 ft away, your passes can float even when there is not that much pressure on the ball handler, and AI teammates lack the situational awareness to handle double-teams late in the shot clock. When the double came in that example, someone should have immediately flashed to the elbow for an outlet and a shot. Instead, everyone stands around in the paint, allows one defender to cover 2-3 people, and even though there's an opening for the pass to get through, he ends up air-mailing his entire team.

The fact that you have to essentially enter a cheat code to try to deal with a double-team; RT + RS back + Swipe left on the track pad + R1 + icon (and even then you're still at the mercy of your teammates off ball AI); it's a little bit of a cheese move. If someone is zig-zagging, baseline dunking, and trying to cheese you hard, then I say throw this at him. But if someone is playing you a good, straight up game, I'd say shelve double teams unless he has a big man killing you in the post.

That's just my opinion though. And again, this has nothing to do with double teams not being a perfectly realistic tactic, it has more to do with the game mechanics surrounding it.