Post Patch On-Ball Defense

[Caelumfang]

I just find this to be very funny. It's like the '2k vets' around here still haven't realize that, when you ask for a nerf or buff, 90% of the time the patch is going to go overboard. All these years, and y'all still haven't learned?

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by BegBy

For you, sir and also for every other person who comes on these forums and claims they want their physicality on the perimeter back. Watch it. Listen to the narrator. Read the rules. Watch it again. Reflect on your position in these arguments. Stop calling people out and saying that what YOU want is anything less than a bail-out because what YOU want is not NBA basketball. What YOU want is the game to do YOUR work for YOU with horrible animations and a level of physicality that rivals other sports. What YOU want is defenders to react at inhuman speeds or if YOU are controlling them they magically negate physics and ignore NBA rules so YOU can get the stop. http://videorulebook.nba.com/archive...egal-position/ From that link you'll be able to read and see video proof (since unless you provide video proof for anything on these forums you'll be called out) of just about every single rule and infraction that can occur in the NBA. The bottom line, as shown in the link above, is really quite simple. The physicality in the game is overdone and would more often than not be called a foul in the NBA. I'm sorry if that upsets people but those are quite literally the rules as determined by the NBA itself. What compounds the issue in the 2k series is the lack of legit defense on a fundamental level and a mixture of arbitrary animations, exaggerated animations, near psychic reaction times of cpu defenders (note that cpu controlled ai is not as consistent or good as the cpu defenders), ignorance of real world physics and people actually believing that when they press buttons they lack the ability to be incorrect. Defense is about teamwork. It's not about impossibly sticking to your guy like glue. It's about letting a guy have room to move all day in that direction because you know you have help and his options are limited. Not banging into him to prevent him from even using a screen 25 feet from the basket. It's about collectively making sound decisions and giving up certain shots. It's not about reacting to a person's movement at the exact instant it happens. It's about making some clutch stops and consistent sound play. It's not about shutting a guy down every trip down the court by magically getting in front of him without foul calls. The NBA's best defenders still get beat all the time. The NBA's best defensive teams will still let in lots of points, because pace is also a huge factor in basketball. That is overlooked so much. I am surprised it's rarely mentioned. I beg everyone to watch the last game between the Golden State Warriors and the LA Clippers. Golden State is regarded as a very sound defensive team with arguably a few of the leagues best on ball and team defenders. Green, Iggy, Thompson and Bogut are no slouches. Curry is also, in my opinion, a highly underrated on ball defender. The Clippers are also pretty decent defensively, although not quite at the Golden State level. Regardless of their defensive abilities both teams put up big points. The reason why is simple. NBA rules dictate that the offensive player(s) pretty much have the right of way. Pace is massive and a few made quick shots (because the offensive player wasn't being bounced around like a pinball) will make scores inflate dramatically. Saying they should add more bumping and contact is (according to the NBA rules as shown above) is dead wrong. Inarguably, positively and absolutely wrong.

First of all that animation is in the game!!!(Well WAS......) MY POINT EXACTLY, just bc you think its a foul does not mean TAKE the animation OUT of the freaking game dude. Its a part of the game, all they have to do is up the fouls on that in which I could agree needs to be done but that call is NOT i repeat NOT a foul everytime bruh ppl flop and everything else to get that call but it is not always called FACTS. I swear you guys are SLEEP!

2k was ATTEMPTING to add realistic physics in the game and you (bleeps) dont even realize that your own argument is NOT with the animations its a case of a foul should be called or maybe they should have triggered a different animation in so and so situation bc your offense is trash, YET, YET your looking at and post a video with a collision between the ball handler and a defender SEEING the animation is almost the same EXACT or if not EXACT, super duper close to what we seen in 2k and now its gone when all you had to do was simply say make it a foul more............? Is there a black ice button for these clowns man. You boys should be like on pause for a couple of hours before you can make another comment, im at a lost for words yo. Unbelievable

Look at 0:12 VARIETY that is one of the ride contact animations I was talking about earlier that happens when have a weak defender. You will get an animation a little similar but just not ALL the time which is realistic.



MY WHOLE POINT IS 2K IS ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A REALISTIC GAME BALANCED BIT BY BIT BUT IF YOU TELL THEM REALISM IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT THEY ASSUME THEY WILL NOT GET YOUR MONEY, SO THEY CHANGE IT. All yall had to do was tell them to IMPROVE the bump animations or add more variety and trigger different ones NOT reduce them bc reducing them is making the game even less life like. So you can talk all this defensive stuff all you want to its nothing without bumps, collisions, Jostling and alot of it bc your not LETTING someone go where they want like you said earlier for some reason(smh) you are SUPPOSE to be FORCING them that way.

You said the physicality is overdone in a contact sport dude cmon with that shh man. You are disrespecting your intelligence in terms of basketball man. STOP, take a breath and think about what you are saying for a minute man. I promise i dont care about being right bruh, it seems like you care to much about being wrong bc anybody who plays basketball KNOWS expect to get bumped, pushed and everything else. You crying like everything is a foul. Every bump is a foul huh man.

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by ESRyder312

My second paragraph reads, "The problem is everyone here was complaining about excessive contact. While I won't comment on that, I will say that, if you watch an NBA game, there is not as much collisions because players are not mindlessly running through players." As unrealistic as players claim the game was with the alleged excessive contact, the offensive game was and is just as unrealistic with online players holding down turbo all game and zig-zagging back and forth. The "unrealistic" contact was in response to the prevalence of unrealistic offense being played. Now, the hordes of players who enjoy turboing to the basket from the three-point line with Dwight Howard can do so with little recourse because of the NOW unrealistic forcefield. Again, regardless of whether people were getting "sucked" into contact, there must be contact when a player runs directly into another player. Period. To reiterate, I'm not commenting on how the game was pre-patch. For the players who actually play the game the right way, and don't cheese, this game, post patch, has gone too far the wrong way. It's made it easier for cheesers to get around the defenders, although the game compensates with more loose balls. One of the main reasons why I liked pre-patch better than post patch is because it punished players who refused to learn the game. My point of view on that, then, is the following: If players played unrealistically, they should be stopped unrealistically.

Im about to throw em a bone real quick. I realized a long time ago that press turbo is suction prone bc when you press it your movement is almost like straight line movement. They should go freelance practice and turbo up and down the court and try to like snake your way.


So I dont use turbo alot bc it sucks you into the defense so I may do a cross move and break out of it, no turbo so I can survey the floor better and decide what I want to do and if I do decide to drive I'll push it, but the ball has to be in the hand of the same direction you want to go for you to get that clean go(I'll try and do a vid for it this year). Most of the time when these guys press turbo they have pretty much decided what they are going to do.

I made this back in 2k12, I had more time to figure out how I was going to get to where I wanted. Some of these guys were trash but yeah.

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

No one asked for zero contact when players are running directly into another. What was asked for was less contact at glancing angles from weak defenders. Thanks for speaking up for me however. The hell? I don't think I've ever met, spoken with, or played against you-- really strange for you to be speaking anything about me. I can fare fine with the pre-patch defense, but I deem it less than realistic because I watch games on a daily basis and defense is not played by sucking and bumping by weak defenders on mild contact. It is played by successful rotations and schemes and heavy contact is only exhibited and gotten away with by certain elite defenders and teams. The Warriors who lead the league in defense last season wasn't even one of them. It was so ovepowered that people didn't notice how bad the pick and roll defense, rotations, and general team defense was for weeks, because it would have been exposed with realistic modelling of perimeter penetration. Seriously, the hell? Maybe think about making cogent basketball arguments without taking shots at people you neither know or know anything about? I DIDN'T make the assumption that you can't play defense and are only complaining because you need the crutch of unrealistic bumping, so I'd appreciate if the favor was returned.

Ok well lets cut the crap. In your opinion Is defense in nba 2k16 better post patch 3?

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

I'm definitely for a greater variety of contact animations include more mild/glancing contact animations and hip-riding animations that don't simply suck your player in and stop movement. As far as physics go, 2K seems to use a pretty simplified physics engine that selectively plays animations based on context and doesn't work well if those animations aren't there or aren't properly triggered. As for fouls, many of those contact animations would be fouls if you watch any decent amount of modern basketball. Some players can get away with that physicality but it's certainly not ever player from 1-15. I mean when's the last time you saw a blocking foul in 2K16? This. Modern NBA defenses rely on teamwork and schemes beyond just iso-handchecking. It's also why I'm not sold on the approach 2K takes of nerfing CPU teammate defenders if you're not controlling them. They're in position to contest. They have their hands up. Why should they be treated as somewhat invisible just because I'm not switched on them, when they are in the proper defensive position for defending the man I funnelled to them?

Im asking questions now bc maybe you all meant to say something else and just worded it a certain way.

Is it safe to say that the contact should not have been toned down but more under control. Being they have only a certain amount of variety in contact ani's, give the stronger ani's to the better defenders and the weaker ones to the less skilled defenders?

I already know how defense is played on a team level we do not really disagree on that. We are talking about more of the one on one on ball defense.

I dont know if 2k can add that type of distribution in animations right now but if the could would you be cool if kwahi Leonard bumping and bodying you up like pre patch?

[Sundown]

Quote: Originally Posted by DatGD12guage

Im asking questions now bc maybe you all meant to say something else and just worded it a certain way. Is it safe to say that the contact should not have been toned down but more under control. Being they have only a certain amount of variety in contact ani's, give the stronger ani's to the better defenders and the weaker ones to the less skilled defenders? I already know how defense is played on a team level we do not really disagree on that. We are talking about more of the one on one on ball defense. I dont know if 2k can add that type of distribution in animations right now but if the could would you be cool if kwahi Leonard bumping and bodying you up like pre patch?

Better defenders can have animations that show slightly more physicality but they should not trigger at slight angles and those animations causing the offensive player to get sucked in and stop movement should not be the majority of how defense is played. If those animations trigger while the defensive player is moving and before he has established position with a cut off, then that should be a foul. Hip riding animations that force the dribbler to slow a bit and take a wider angle should occur instead.

Even Kawhi doesn't play defense with the heavy bumping you see pre patch. He plays defense with his length and ability to poke at the ball without contact and ability to recover to block the shot. Sometimes he actually gives up the lane just to block the shot.

Watch his defensive highlights. Notice how there is zero perimeter bumping on the ball handler like you see pre-patch.

As far is whether the patch is better I have an Xbox One so I don't have the patch. I'm merely commenting on how it looks in videos, how it plays before the patch, and how actual basketball is played.

[DatGD12guage]

Quote: Originally Posted by Sundown

Better defenders can have animations that show slightly more physicality but they should not trigger at slight angles and those animations causing the offensive player to get sucked in and stop movement should not be the majority of how defense is played. If those animations trigger while the defensive player is moving and before he has established position with a cut off, then that should be a foul. Hip riding animations that force the dribbler to slow a bit and take a wider angle should occur instead. Even Kawhi doesn't play defense with the heavy bumping you see pre patch. He plays defense with his length and ability to poke at the ball without contact and ability to recover to block the shot. Sometimes he actually gives up the lane just to block the shot. Watch his defensive highlights. Notice how there is zero perimeter bumping on the ball handler like you see pre-patch. As far is whether the patch is better I have an Xbox One so I don't have the patch. I'm merely commenting on how it looks in videos, how it plays before the patch, and how actual basketball is played.

Ok so you don't really have a problem with bumping you just have a problem with the situations its used in and the way its used bc the hip riding animation is jostling or collision which is what bumping means by definition.


Taking it out was not the solution. Improving it was which is what I think your really getting at and I can agree if THAT is your stance.


However ME personally, I did not have a problem with how the defense was bc we have had a offensive heavy game for years. There had to be something added to prevent ppl from just morphing through or treadmill running through shh like it was not even there so I was cool bc I knew improvements are for sure coming anyway. They improve their physics every year.




OK maybe yall have watched this video thinking EVERYBODY can and plays on ball defense like this LOL


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6UipM10DdG0


If you listen he says Kawhi is UNLIKE ANY LOCKDOWN defender he has covered, Meaning he plays defense to HIS streghths so bc he has that RARE size, length, and athletism, mixed with his high defensive IQ only HE and the VERY few(no more than 5 in my op) of his caliber can play defense like that giving ground.


So don't get it twisted this is NOT the prototype for playing defense yo LOL. When you cut somebody off there will be that BUMP if you were successful bc you will stop them from going thus way, and even defenders other than Kawhi are giving ground its not suppose to be just a free run you still have to keep your man under control dude.


It would be super dope if 2k could capture SIGNATURE on ball defense though and we could choose our style on a created player to trigger certain animations bc I've seen some of this guys videos before. The Patrick Beverly one to be exact.

[BegBy]

I have no issue with hip riding or contact animations where the ball handler gets to continue to move (roughly) where they are going. That's basketball. If a defender escorts, allows or funnels a ball handler to the baseline, help defense or a trap, I'm more than ok with it. What I truly dislike are the violent collisions in which both players basically stop, or the rare animation where the ball handler bounces back like 8 feet. Those are always a foul. It may be charging, or blocking, but it's always foul. It's rarely a call in this game, and it's incredibly unrealistic. Just as important as the animation is how it happened and that's always terrible also. Defenders somehow morphing through screens, recovering from screens and accelerating at physics defying speeds, defenders reacting the precise instant the ball handler makes a move, etc.

Just because the game lacks a lot on the defensive end fundamentally doesn't mean that offense should be neutered via any of the suspect issues. Until the developers rework the defense we will continue to see band aid fixes like poor ball handling animations, lack of explosiveness from offensive players and a host of other issues mentioned and more.

I get that online play is where these issues get exploited. I just feel, and I recognize I'm being selfish in saying this, that until some core issues are fixed, it will never change and it really sucks for people who do not play online. Tuning the game or catering to the online crowd is more difficult in that you have constant human input on both ends of the ball, and people will always do whatever is necessary to win. People will always try to do too many dribble moves and drive. People will always try to steal spam or camp in the key. Factoring in human unpredictability and complete lack of tendencies (aside from our compulsion to cheese to win) is near impossible to replicate to provide a good simulation analog. So why try? Code for cpu core play and tendencies. Cultivate good fundamentals so that it functions on a simulation level. After that people can complain all they want.

Don't get rid of contact, but the excessive physicality is a bit much. Fixing why it happens should be the first priority but since that seems years away I hope the continued effort to strike a balance is pursued, but not at the expense of the overall offensive experience because not all players are Leonard-esque and not all teams are the Spurs.