NBA 2K's Teammate Defensive AI & Movement is Broken, and Has Been Broken for a While.

[jWILL253]

So, I have the PS4 version of NBA 2K16, which I bought after skipping 2K15 last year (due to me not having a PS4 at the time, or strong enough hardware to run the PC version). Up until recently, I have been having a blast with the game. There were some legacy issues that popped up from time to time, but it wasn't anything that popped up too often when playing against most CPU controlled teams. Things like typical defensive AI lapses, occasional boneheaded decisions by CPU controlled teammates dribbling into contested momentum shots immediately after being found wide open, etc. But, as I said, the issues didn't occur too often when playing against most teams.

Then, in MyGM mode, my Phoenix Suns played the New Orleans Pelicans. It was around then that I really began to notice how poor this engine is.

Obviously, going up against Anthony Davis is gonna be a hard time. But I thought that Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive big men in the league, could handle the task of keeping Davis relatively in check. Mind you, I play on All-Star with Player/Position Lock on the PG. So, I realize that I was trusting the AI with an admittedly huge task.

However, what I didn't expect was for those same aforementioned teammate defensive AI lapses that occur occasionally... to start happening literally every defensive possession. First, there's the bug where the opposing PG completes a half-court pass to a wide open big man downcourt for an easy layup/dunk. While that happened probably once or twice every game against other teams, the CPU-controlled Pelicans kept abusing that bug every couple possessions or so. Then, there are the general defensive AI bugs that have been in the game since 2K11:

1. Lethargic rotations and close-outs of opposing shooters.

2. Defenders sliding out of the way of a driving offensive player, creating a wide open lane to the rim.

3. Failing to defend against cutters.

4. Defenders outright leaving their assignments to cover the on-ball player, even though that offensive player is already accounted for. This creates situations where the abandoned off-ball player now has a wide open shot, which is usually taken advantage of by the CPU.

*All of these issues pop up the most in the frontcourt. So, if you're playing a team that has even decent frontcourt players offensively, then watch out.

Now, you would think that all of these issues could be fixed by A) lowering the difficulty, B) Seeking out better defenders to guard opposing players, or C) adjusting the individual defensive settings for each opposing player. I tried the latter, and I found out something terrible: None of the defensive settings other than "double" even work for the teammate AI. They don't hedge at all. They don't follow the off-ball screen setting parameters. They don't force players to one side of the court. Hell, with all the sliding that occurs, even the on-ball/off-ball defensive intensity doesn't work. Only double teaming works, and the double teams are always telegraphed by the AI, and always occur later than they should.

So, when that didn't work, I tried B, and traded Tyson Chandler & Brandon Knight for Dwight Howard. Now, I thought Howard's athleticism, rebounding, and elite post defense would put my frontcourt over the top when combined with the face-up abilities of Markeef Moris. But NOPE. Went to play the Pelicans again, and he same issues occurred. So, this tells me that the AI issues are gonna occur regardless of the quality of your team's defense.

So then, I tried lowering the difficulty. But the issues still occur, just at a lower rate.

After all of that, I said "Screw it. I'm just gonna overcompensate with the defender I'm controlling like every other 2K player does." Now, this leads me to the biggest issue I have with NBA 2K: When I'm on defense, I feel like I'm fighting the animation engine and the controls more than I am defending the man across from me.

I know why this is, tho. The main difference between 2K Sports games and EA Sports games is the choice of either prioritizing animation quality or responsiveness. 2K clearly prefers animation quality over a more responsive game, while EA prefers the opposite. 2K games animate well but, for the most part, control awfully; EA games are fluid and responsive, but have really janky animations.

2K's preference is a problem both offensively and defensively because I find myself losing a lot of movement freedom. For instance, on defense, I try to stay in front of on-ball/off-ball mark, but too often find myself taking one or two unnecessary steps too many, and have to wait for the animation to completely play out before I can recover. On offense, I find myself not being able to pull myself out of certain on-ball collisions with an on-ball defender. In the case I do get past my marker, however, the CPU will literally try to run into me to jar the ball loose for a turnover. That's if a defender doesn't decide to have his arm clip through my controlled player for a really late block.

In addition to fighting the animations, there are certain animations that are delayed. There will be times where I attempt a block/rebound/steal and the animation will either play out too slowly, or you see the animation play out long after you pressed the button that was supposed to trigger the animation.

These issues have been a part of 2K's engine since 2K11. Why haven't they fixed these issues yet?

[Rockie_Fresh88]

Never seen so many threads about the movement . Op have you tried player locking on the big man ? How did it feel then defensively?

[ArtistMonk]

Think of monorail or ley lines if you ever heard of that term, the CPU A.I. is glide along these lines effortlessly, this is all run through the ball. 2k biggest lie is making us believe that our A.I. and CPU have coding issues or are lopsided.

Untrue, the ball is coded to force the CPU to be effective in every aspect of the game.

Think it through logically, no matter what setting or sliders you put.

CPU A.I. is basically dragged to any loose ball in game.

Ball seems to deflect perfectly to CPU A.I. only.

CPU A.I. arms are only raised to deflect passes, CPU never guesses a pass "lane"

CPU never guesses a rebound, it jumps ONLY to exactly where a rebound is going.

Ball seems to go exactly where a CPU is on rebounds and literally almost all 'loose ball movements"

CPU doesn't need to see ball movement, CPU can have back to ball and will be pulled perfectly to ball on defense and offense.

Ball perfectly is passed around by any player on CPU, seems it projects itself from point to point, ball handle of no consequence.

Ball seems to make itself be thrown to avoid all deflections by CPU

Ball makes itself be thrown towards nearest CPU when you or your teammates "throw" it. Ball also seems to drag the recipient of passes on your team away from RIM on offense and into or near or BEHIND CPU defender.

Last but not least, ball won't go in for your team on the most easiest shots and you'll notice the ball moves, rebounds, deflects, bobbles in a manner that limits you to one possession touch a play while CPU can get multiple touches, recovers per possession.

You and A.I. teammates find yourselves doing animations that perfectly line up to be blocked and recovered flawlessly by CPU, your A.I. seems to want to have shot blocked, puts up most mundane shots. CPU with ball can have it's hands weave, ball magic evasion skill through entire team of hands attempting to block and go in somehow.

It's the ball and has always been the ball.

Your A.I. is simply turned off, forcibly pulled out of CPU way especially if shot clock down to 5 or so.... made to fall down all the time on defense. The fall down you'll notice happens often when your defender is bigger than the matchup, he just lays down to allow smaller CPU free shot. EVERYONE on CPU is faster than everyone of your team in entire league...Haaaa

Your big men have zero variety of moves in paint even if elite player meanwhile any big on CPU team has every move.

Lastly and most important, the ball refuses to allow CPU ballhandler to pick up dribble, I think we all notice that, all gaurds have endless dribble moves no matter the amount of pressure or collisions.

Only way you can somehow code that for CPU every team INCLUDING when you play a scrimmage to occur is to have ball orchestrate that, ball super charges anyone not on your team when a person is playing.

Watch yourself on bench in Myplayer mode and notice your A.I. plays efficient cyborg ball just like CPU until you reenter the game.

What more proof do you need than that.

[KingTocco]

Yet another thread about how this game is broken, lmao that's the most overly used word on this site.

Game is definitely not broken, it's not perfect but it's a fantastic game.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jWILL253]

Quote: Originally Posted by StrictlyForBuckets

Yet another thread about how this game is broken, lmao that's the most overly used word on this site. Game is definitely not broken, it's not perfect but it's a fantastic game. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

You don't have to justify your purchase to me.

[Pokes404]

There's a big difference between "not as good as I think it can be" and "broken." I'm speaking mostly to the criticisms of the movement here. I prefer 2K's movement philosophy over EA's because even though 2K's players don't feel as explosive as real-life players. I love that the players feel like they have some weight behind them. Sports games that emphasize "responsiveness" usually end up feeling much more arcadey to me. In EA's case, players feel like they're floating above the court and not bound by any kind of real world physics. It makes it harder for me to get engrossed in the action when players are moving around the court in a way that constantly reminds me I'm playing a video game.

At the same time, I realize that other people would rather have super-responsive controls, limit the importance of animations, and emphasize stick skills more heavily. Those people probably have a lot bigger problem with the player movement than me. Doesn't make either of us wrong, just looking for something different. The tight rope 2K has to walk between control/physics is a difficult one and I think there's always more to be desired. Especially when you consider that everyone is looking for something different out of the gameplay.

But I think calling the current movement system "broken" is a bit of hyperbole. I like the current system for the most part and I'm sure I'm not alone. It isn't perfect by any stretch, but I think it is the foundation that gives 2K some of the most realistic looking gameplay, overall, in sports gaming. At the end of the day it's a video game, so it isn't going to be without its problems. But I think 2K does a reasonably good job of replicating the game of basketball, and the movement system is a big part of that.

[DolfanDave]

Quote: Originally Posted by jWILL253

So, I have the PS4 version of NBA 2K16, which I bought after skipping 2K15 last year (due to me not having a PS4 at the time, or strong enough hardware to run the PC version). Up until recently, I have been having a blast with the game. There were some legacy issues that popped up from time to time, but it wasn't anything that popped up too often when playing against most CPU controlled teams. Things like typical defensive AI lapses, occasional boneheaded decisions by CPU controlled teammates dribbling into contested momentum shots immediately after being found wide open, etc. But, as I said, the issues didn't occur too often when playing against most teams. Then, in MyGM mode, my Phoenix Suns played the New Orleans Pelicans. It was around then that I really began to notice how poor this engine is. Obviously, going up against Anthony Davis is gonna be a hard time. But I thought that Tyson Chandler, one of the best defensive big men in the league, could handle the task of keeping Davis relatively in check. Mind you, I play on All-Star with Player/Position Lock on the PG. So, I realize that I was trusting the AI with an admittedly huge task. However, what I didn't expect was for those same aforementioned teammate defensive AI lapses that occur occasionally... to start happening literally every defensive possession. First, there's the bug where the opposing PG completes a half-court pass to a wide open big man downcourt for an easy layup/dunk. While that happened probably once or twice every game against other teams, the CPU-controlled Pelicans kept abusing that bug every couple possessions or so. Then, there are the general defensive AI bugs that have been in the game since 2K11: 1. Lethargic rotations and close-outs of opposing shooters. 2. Defenders sliding out of the way of a driving offensive player, creating a wide open lane to the rim. 3. Failing to defend against cutters. 4. Defenders outright leaving their assignments to cover the on-ball player, even though that offensive player is already accounted for. This creates situations where the abandoned off-ball player now has a wide open shot, which is usually taken advantage of by the CPU. *All of these issues pop up the most in the frontcourt. So, if you're playing a team that has even decent frontcourt players offensively, then watch out. Now, you would think that all of these issues could be fixed by A) lowering the difficulty, B) Seeking out better defenders to guard opposing players, or C) adjusting the individual defensive settings for each opposing player. I tried the latter, and I found out something terrible: None of the defensive settings other than "double" even work for the teammate AI. They don't hedge at all. They don't follow the off-ball screen setting parameters. They don't force players to one side of the court. Hell, with all the sliding that occurs, even the on-ball/off-ball defensive intensity doesn't work. Only double teaming works, and the double teams are always telegraphed by the AI, and always occur later than they should. So, when that didn't work, I tried B, and traded Tyson Chandler & Brandon Knight for Dwight Howard. Now, I thought Howard's athleticism, rebounding, and elite post defense would put my frontcourt over the top when combined with the face-up abilities of Markeef Moris. But NOPE. Went to play the Pelicans again, and he same issues occurred. So, this tells me that the AI issues are gonna occur regardless of the quality of your team's defense. So then, I tried lowering the difficulty. But the issues still occur, just at a lower rate. After all of that, I said "Screw it. I'm just gonna overcompensate with the defender I'm controlling like every other 2K player does." Now, this leads me to the biggest issue I have with NBA 2K: When I'm on defense, I feel like I'm fighting the animation engine and the controls more than I am defending the man across from me. I know why this is, tho. The main difference between 2K Sports games and EA Sports games is the choice of either prioritizing animation quality or responsiveness. 2K clearly prefers animation quality over a more responsive game, while EA prefers the opposite. 2K games animate well but, for the most part, control awfully; EA games are fluid and responsive, but have really janky animations. 2K's preference is a problem both offensively and defensively because I find myself losing a lot of movement freedom. For instance, on defense, I try to stay in front of on-ball/off-ball mark, but too often find myself taking one or two unnecessary steps too many, and have to wait for the animation to completely play out before I can recover. On offense, I find myself not being able to pull myself out of certain on-ball collisions with an on-ball defender. In the case I do get past my marker, however, the CPU will literally try to run into me to jar the ball loose for a turnover. That's if a defender doesn't decide to have his arm clip through my controlled player for a really late block. In addition to fighting the animations, there are certain animations that are delayed. There will be times where I attempt a block/rebound/steal and the animation will either play out too slowly, or you see the animation play out long after you pressed the button that was supposed to trigger the animation. These issues have been a part of 2K's engine since 2K11. Why haven't they fixed these issues yet?

I must commend you as your gripe was well thought out and explained and your opinion lines up with most of my belief. I too finally had a chance to play again since I had a thanksgiving herd over the time the patch came out. But even since day 1 when I went into details with my "am I the one?" thread with a catalog of video evident some people were still in the honeymoon phase. But if you play mainly offline ie mygm, mycareer. The defensive is so bad that you really can't play it without feeling cheated . And mycareer is even worst as you have no coaching abilities plus it really don't change because I can try and do all the settings for no help d in mygm but it doesn't matter as the "help" is hard coded whether you want it or not.

Bad preprogrammed transition defense logic, offball defenders being infatuated with the ball handler in transition and half court which leads to wide open shoots in transition, players running into the paint leaving offball defenders , players being called for illegal d, help d when there is no need for help, etc. I could go on but this will only get worst as Da czar continue to perfect the offense. As of right now the offense ai is nba while the defense is high school which is why the unbalanced nature make all offline modes unplayable to me.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N900A using Tapatalk

[jfsolo]

The use of the word broken has almost assuredly doomed this thread to closure, but jWILL253, ArtistMonk, and DolfanDave, are on point with their criticisms. I give credit to you guys who just fight through it, and find ways to compensate for and overcome these problems. I can't do it, I just melt down and turn the game off after a quarter or two. Not knowing what random craziness may occur on any play is just too frustrating for me.